This week, we start by reflecting on what it was like to open up about body image in our last episode. We also wanted to make sure we thanked YOU, yes you, for all of the love you've shared with us after such a vulnerable conversation. Then, we invite scholar-activist Dr. Yaba Blay to talk to us about how and why colorism plays out in our day-to-day lives. We talk about her book "One Drop: Shifting the Lens on Race," about how colorism shifts across gender, and what it might look like for those with privilege to lead the way to change. Oh! We were featured in THEE New York Times, ICYMI: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/style/oknowlisten-sylvia-obell-scottie-beam.html
Okay, Now Listen Season 2 Episode 6 Transcript
[Music in]
Scottie Beam: You're listening to Okay, Now Listen, a biweekly show where we chat about what's on our minds, what we're bingeing and what's blowing up our timelines. I'm Scottie Beam, a media personality, content creator and music enthusiast and a wing connoisseur.
Sylvia Obell: And I'm Sylvia Obell. I'm a cultural writer, host, producer and lover of Beyonce.
[Music out]
SB: Sylvio, how are you feeling this week? What's on your mind, how's your heart, sis?
SO: You know, I am really filled with so much gratitude, honestly, for the -- just the outpouring love we got last episode. You guys -- like Scottie knows, but you guys don't know, like, we were very anxious. We were very nervous. There's nothing worse than realizing what the perfect topic that's necessary is. And it's not being something you really wanted. And not being something you really want to talk about. But, you know, it just necessary and needed and it's really probably the best option.
SB: Yeah.
SO: That's how I felt very much about the body image episode and knowing that it's a thing that we should address, it would be perfect. But also knowing that it would require me to do a lot of mental work, move a lot of mental blocks around to shed and have that level of vulnerability, because I never had to have that conversation before out loud in a non-secure, safe space where people just understand me and love me and know where I'm coming from.
SB: Mm hmm. This is the Black woman ecosystem where like, we literally feel each other. We give, we get, we give and receive. And I think it'll always be like that as long as it's authentic and it's real. And the love that I have been receiving, that we have been receiving has been so real. And just --
SO: It's moving.
SB: Helps me, you know, immensely. And I read every single paragraph, every single letter, everything. I know that one of the main ones was getting Sylvia to show them titties. So I'm definitely --
SO: [crosstalk] Which is why they're out and supporting--.
SB: [crosstalk] Definitely on the move.
SO: [crosstalk] I'm tired.
SB: [crosstalk] Hello.
SO: [crosstalk] I'm ti -- I was like -- Scottie --
SB: [crosstalk] But I -- I've just got to bring it up. [laughter] We got to, we got to put a machine behind it.
SO: [crosstalk] Stop bullying me.
SB: [crosstalk] Me and y'all.
SO: No. Don't let her round y'all up cus you got -- I was like -- I be screenshotting and sending Scottie like, you got our listeners bullying me on the internet. And that's the opposite of what we're supposed to be doing here today. [laughter] I don't want to posting an accomplishment and then y'all be like, where the, the titties at? Like y'all, can there be balance? [laughter] Can not -- I'm talking about something very professional right now. Please don't embarrass me in front of my professional friends.
SB: Titties are professional. That's right. [laughter] Everything is professional about titties.
SO: Y'all listen to Scottie more than y'all listen to me. And I think that's very funny [laughter] because y'all will be quick. Well, Scottie said -- I know what she said! That's my friend. [laughs] She be in my messages. No need to further emphasize. But no, I do love y'all. And I know you guys doing it are doing it in a loving way. Bullying me into being more naked on Instagram, but I [laughs] -- I genuinely appreciate the love. And honestly, we -- I cried so much reading the messages that you guys sent us --.
SB: Yeah.
SO: Where you opened up about your own personal struggles. And just my favorite, favorite, favorite thing is that you -- a lot of you walked away saying, I'm going to stop shaming myself. I'm going to stop being this hard on myself or I'm going to try. At least there was a moment that this episode gave you guys a moment to be -- to show some empathy towards yourselves and your bodies and realize that you are not alone. I think that was really the overall message, is that you guys -- we're not alone. And I love that, you know, as hard as it was for us to admit it, I love that us talking about our body image issues allowed you all to say, oh, you know, two women who I think are beautiful or this or that feel that way about themselves, then this is showing me how mental it is and like how I'm not just by myself feeling that way. So that was really, to me, the biggest gift. And I love reading your messages. Please keep sending them. I haven't --.
SB: Yes.
SO: I've tried to respond to as many people as I can. But do know that I'm reading them. We're both reading them and we both love you guys so much for feeling like close enough to us to talk about such personal things and that our voices or our opinions matter enough to you to make you be gentler for yourself cus I know it's not easy. We know it's not easy because we struggle to do it for ourselves.
SB: Right. And I just also want to shout out, like the people who checked me. You know, I was on my IG Live recently and I was talking about playlists. And I had put a butt in there and --.
SO: Get about the butts.
SB: And bunch of people checked me on -- there like, what did I tell you about that butt? But the butts. What did you say about the butts? And because of that I had to really like, take a step back and be more intentional with the things that I'm saying. Also because I told y'all and I told myself to do it but there are times where I'm going to be lacking. And the fact that y'all have picked it up.
SO: Yes.
SB: And said, eh, you dropped this. That's what I love, like, I really appreciate you guys for that. Thank you.
SO: I love that they're on your ass as well. [laughs]
SB: Yeah, I love -- I love that they're on my ass. I love it. It made me feel heard. And I was like, wow, you're really listening to me. And the shit that I'm going through, that we are going through. I'm glad that this podcast is a safe space for us to have vulnerable conversations like that.
SO: Yeah.
SB: And this week's episode, hmm, we're hopping right back into our vulnerability bags with Dr. Yaba Blay.
SO: Yes. Dr. Yaba Blay is a scholar-activist whose work centers on the experiences of Black women and girls with a particular focus on identity, body politics and beauty practices. So it's really a perfect follow up, we think, to the body image episode we had before this because it plays -- it goes hand in hand for us. We grew up -- you know us growing up dark skinned very much impacted how we viewed ourselves and, you know, contributed to various insecurities. So we kind of felt like, you know, if we talked about the body part, we got to talk about colorism too, because that is about how we present ourselves.
SB: Mmhmm. So today we'll be chatting with Dr. Blay about her book, One Drop, Shifting the Lens on Race and sharing the ways colorism has shown up in our personal lives.
[Music in]
SO: I'm so excited for this conversation. Let's get into it.
SB: Turn this up. Right after this. Turn it all the way the fuck up, because you're going to want to hear this.
SO: Listen till the end.
SB: Listen to the end. [laughter]
[Music out]
SB: So welcome to the show, Dr. Yaba Blay. Before we get into our conversation, because we have a lot to talk about, we always have to ask our guests, how is your heart today, Dr.?
Dr. Yaba Blay: Hmm. My heart is full of a few things. There's some joy and there, of course, just because I'm thankful for the moment. But there's also a lot of other stuff, you know, pain, exhaustion, overwhelmia just at the state of the world that we live in. So. But overall, I'm good. Thank you for asking.
SB: It's good to know
SO: Love that term overwhelmia. Like, I'm definitely going to take that, just so you know because --.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes, yes.
SO: [laughs] I didn't even know the thing, but I felt it the second you said it. I was like that, that sounds like a feeling I'm very accustomed to. So thank you for -- you're already teaching us one second in the interview. [laughs].
YB: [laughs] I might have made that up.
SO: No but we're rocking with it. It's fine. It don't have to be a real word. But before we get into our own personal experiences with colorism, we wanted to briefly talk about the one drop rule that you talk about in your book, One Drop Shifting the Lens on Race. How did you find yourself writing a whole book about the one drop rule? [laughs].
YB: Hmm, that's a long story, which I kind of -- I mean, I write about in the book as an intro, but my work and my interest on colorism, of course, starts from a personal space. I grew up very dark skinned, Ghanaian-American, born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. And so if you know anything about New Orleans, you know the history of that city, that Black city at least, is very much rooted in and tied to so many aspects of colorism, namely around identity, folks who identify as Creole. And though Creole is a culture, right, and there is a rich history associated with that, most of the folks, particularly from a child's perspective, much of what it meant to be Creole was to have light skin and pretty hair. Right. And so that absolutely impacted me, the ways that I saw myself, how I saw others seeing me and my ability to connect with folks. And a lot of that was very much predicated on skin color. And so in terms of the book, I was on a panel many years ago at the Caribbean Cultural Center with Rosa Clemente, who many people know. And Rosa was on the panel. We were talking about colorism in the diaspora. And this is the first time I met Rosa in person. And she kept identifying as a Black Puerto Rican woman from the South Bronx. And though I knew some Puerto Ricans, I had never met a Puerto Rican who identified as Black. You know, for all the folks that I had been around, Puerto Rican with something else, right. Like I knew Puerto Ricans who looked Black --.
SB: [crosstalk] Absolutely.
YB: They certainly didn't claim Black, right. And here she was in my presence not looking Black according to my understanding of Blackness at the time, but identifying as Black. And so I was distracted, [laughter] the entire panel. Like, what is she talking about and how did we get here? And so we ended up talking a lot afterwards. And in so doing it, just had my head spinning and thinking and rethinking things and what I thought I knew about a lot of people. And so I just got the bright idea that I wanted to talk to more people like Rosa who may not, quote unquote look Black, but see themselves identifying as Black and wanting to understand how they got there and why they would claim that identity. Because, again, in my experience, folks who, quote unquote, had the option to not claim Blackness often took that absolutely, right.
SO: Right.
YB: And here you are. You could just say you're Puerto Rican, but you're choosing to say that you're Black Puerto Rican. From Rosa's perspective, it wasn't a choice. So I was very much interested in talking to more folks like Rosa from all over the world and coming to understand what Blackness meant to them.
SB: I love that answer. I love that so much. I wanted to know why is it important for people to know, people like Rosa, you know, aside from yourself, why was it so important?
YB: For her to know her Blackness?
SB: Yes, for her to know her Blackness. But for other people to know her Blackness as well. Like for other people to understand that there are people who see themselves as Black, who are also Spanish because growing up in New York City, as well, I didn't see that a lot. At all actually. Afro- Latina is just a new thing for me. So, yeah, I wanted to know why was it important for others to know too, aside from yourself?
YB: Yeah. I think the thing -- also in that moment, you know, I had recently graduated from grad school. I got my Ph.D. in Black Studies. And again, my focus is on colorism. But in thinking of identity and even the ways that we think about Blackness, like I had these experiences in grad school, I went to Temple. And Temple is like the Blackest, you know, Black Studies History. It is because it's the home of Afro-centricity. Right. And so we weren't even calling each other Black and white. We talk about Afro -- you know, African and Europeans. And everybody's got their dashikis and African names and so on and so forth. And so even talking about race was something different in that space. But I think what I also come to understand in that space and beyond is that race is so much bigger than just these kind of boxes that people give us and say, this is who you are and move forward. But for us to understand, particularly in the context of white supremacy, understanding Blackness as not just a racial identity, but a political one. Right. And so when I use the language of political, just to simply say that there are negotiations of power at play, even in the language that we use to identify ourselves. So that if we live in this country and we allow ourselves to be minoritized and then take on that identity of a minority, even though we are 13 percent of the population in this country, we are two-thirds of the population of the world. But if we sit in this space and only identify as African-American or Black American or we keep our Blackness as very centralized to our own, you know, national experience, we lose the opportunity to see ourselves connected to the rest of the world. Right. And so from Rosa's perspective and so for so many other folks in the book, from their perspective, it's like, no, let me connect with the larger majority of my people that not to allow the system to keep us separated because that's a political move. Like if we believe that we're minorities, that we believe that we're not connected to as many people as we actually are in the world, that we might actually believe that what it is we experience in this world is a numbers game when it's not.
SO: Absolutely. When Scottie was speaking about how terms like Afro-Latina have popped up or even how when you were on this panel and you know, that -- you're an adult listening to that woman do this. And I think it speaks to something that even in my experience, I realized about this brown category that kind of emerged in more recent times. I think, you know, growing up for me in high -- in growing up in school, like when I was in elementary school, in high school and even in college, it wasn't really a thing. Like it was like you were either light skinned or you were dark skinned. And this whole category of us coming together as brown almost felt like people wanted to finally be able to speak up and be like, oh, I do -- I am Black and I do own it now. I was joking with our producers when I was like trying to figure out when being light skinned became unpopular. So like I just wanted to know --
YB: Has it? [laughs]
SO: I -- I mean like, well it's the thing where it's kind of like, there's a lot of people who will joke, am I light skinned? I thought I was brown. And in my mind they're very clearly light skinned. So I wanted to get kind of your thoughts on how it's kind of evolved from strict categories --.
YB: Yeah..
SO: To all of us coming together in this interesting way. Like, do you have any idea of what maybe made that turn happen?
YB: Is hard to say and pinpoint, because even as you were talking, I think, as a historical reality, folks of African descent have always claimed some level of connection given our reality under white supremacy. We may not have had the language at the time. So if anything has changed, I think it's the creation of language and people's optioning into using that language. But I don't think the reality is different necessarily. Right. What ends up happening generationally is that many of us don't learn those histories. Many of us aren't raised in communities that would help us to understand that this has always existed and so it seems new. And now, you know, we're in a moment where we get most of our information from social media, for better or for worse, and lots of experts, for better or for worse, on the Twitters and such. And so it feels like it's new. I think the language is new. So even Scottie, when you were talking to you saying Afro-Latina, Afro LatinX, these are new terms. They are new terms, but they aren't new realities. Right. And so I think it's just the new language that makes us think that this is something new and folks are all of a sudden jumping to claim this identity. I think it's now that folks have the language, we're hearing it more. But I don't know that it's a new reality for folks.
SO: Yeah, I think when I think about new reality, I kind of even just think about how growing up, like I was considered dark skinned, I had to deal with all the things that were attached to being dark skinned. Now, as an adult, sometimes people may be like, you're not dark skinned, you're brown. But I come from a dark skinned family and like, you know, I'm definitely on the lighter end of that darker skinned family. And I've always, you know, a lot of my cousins look like -- are your complexion or like, you know, we love to give the Lupita Nyong'o because she's the popular Kenyan right now.
YB: Right.
SO: Granted, I do feel like jokingly, you know, when I was younger, I was definitely darker because I was outside like I was on the playground, I was on summer grounds.
YB: Of course.
SO: Like, I was definitely --.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: Darker growing up. But I do think that I have never in my life been considered light skinned. And like I guess growing up for me, those were the only two options. There was no other category.
YB: Right.
SO: So it was firmly like --.
YB: Right.
SO: The same way they would consider like a Gabrielle Union was like, oh, finally, some darker representation on movies in the 90s. Cus we didn't have that many options. We didn't have the Viola's yet. We didn't have, you know, all of that. I just feel like, you know, with the more options that kind of grew in that sense. But to your point, like, yeah, I've seen a range.
SB: Also the sense of like people understanding the trauma behind it, right. For me, I get very upset, I get kind of offended
YB: And you get violent. [laughs]
SB: I get a little violent. I get upset. Because, yes, we're all brown. Absolutely. But when you say that, sometimes it makes it sound as if my traumas or the things that has happened to me due to colorism doesn't exist because we're all brown. And that's something that I've had to deal with --.
YB: [crosstalk] Right.
SB: I think my whole life. My family wasn't all dark skinned. They're all light skinned. And they come from Belize. And although there are tons of -- they're Black people in Belize, colorism is loud and clear there. It is --
YB: For sure.
SB: Still shining bright today. So, yeah, I didn't realize that dark skin was such a bad thing until I went to school. And listening to my family. You know, listening to how they talk about me, how they talk about my father. I would love for you to tell me, when did you realize or recognize that dark skin was a bad thing -- if you ever did?
YB: I probably -- before I probably knew how to spell my name. I mean, I grew up in New Orleans. You know, New Orleans is my favorite city, of course, in the United States. It's a beautiful space. Lots of love, lots of culture. But most of the New Orleans that most folks see isn't the New Orleans I grew up in. You know, once you leave the French Quarter and once you leave the good time it's another reality. And things have definitely shifted in such. And I don't want to make this exclusive to New Orleans because I think within our communities, within our playgrounds, children say the darndest things, right. And there are all kinds of jokes, right, just within our own cultural memory. There are all kinds of jokes that are absolutely connected to skin color. You so Black. You so Black. You so Black. You know, insert whatever offense behind that. But people let me know that I was dark skinned. My family didn't have that -- We all look the same. I'm not the darkest person in my family.
SB: [crosstalk] Right, right.
YB: Right. So there was no need to comment on my complexion. I just was. But then you go outside and in comparison to -- this is what happens, it's a comparison game. We're comparing our skin color. We're comparing our hair texture. We're comparing our hair length. We're comparing our body type and body size. And so my skin color was always in comparison to everyone else. And so in that context, I was the darkest thing ever. And people let me know that, right. But even when you speak about that range, you know, you said there were only those two options of light skinned, dark skinned. And it just made me think that the paper bag becomes the fence.
SO: [crosstalk] Absolutely. Yep.
YB: Right. So light skinned, you lighter than the bag. Dark skin, anything darker. But in the mainstream's attempt to diversify and show our range, what makes me want to peel my skin off is when the dark skin range stops at Gabrielle Union.
SB: Well, hello.
YB: And Gabrielle Union's not the darkest thing, you know.
SO: [crosstalk] No, no.
YB: And so I remember very specifically, it was 1997, I was in the A&P Supermarket in New Orleans with one of my best friends at the time who is a man. And Alek Wek was on the cover of Elle magazine. And it's the first time I saw her and I was like elated and trying to count my coins to see how many copies of the magazine I could buy. Because I'm like, this is the first time in my lived experience -- aside from a Cicely Tyson maybe, right. But this is the first time -- but even as a child, I don't remember people saying Cicely was beautiful.
SO: Right. True.
YB: Right. And so this woman is on the cover of white people's beauty magazine,.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Like what's happening? And I remember being hype. And my homeboy was pissed. He was so annoyed. And I'm like, bro like, what's wrong with you. White people making fun of us. They know she's not beautiful. And so I'm like, that is not even possible. It's not -- it has to be a conspiracy. White people are making fun of us because there's no way that this woman could be beautiful and put on the cover of this magazine. And so if you think that instantly, just by look -- like you haven't taken a time to open the magazine, you haven't taken the time to look at this woman's speech, nothing. You just look at her boom, you're angry. And so that's what you think about her. What is your visceral response to me?
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Oh no, that's different? Okay, cool, cool, cool. But again, '97, I was in my 20s. So if I had waited my entire life to see myself, we would have stopped. Gabrielle Union? That's as dark as we're going to get and talk about the potential for beauty? You know what I mean? So even in this moment, as we talk about skin color for Black folks, I think our understandings of light skin and dark skin are still skewed.
SO: No. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think, like you said, there was a whole end of the dark skin spectrum that wasn't represented until we had the Alex Weks or the Viola Davises or the Lupita Nyong'os and on and on. So I do totally understand that. And I think for me, what's interesting when you talk about the gap about like in the house versus outside and how that even happens. Because for me, none -- me nor my cousins, no matter how dark we may have been, were never made to feel like we were less than for that. It was very much love. And I know that's not everybody's experience. I know there are certain people who like, you know, maybe parents wouldn't let them go outside too much in the summer because they didn't want them to get any darker.
SB: Couldn't sit on your knees because your knees would get dark.
SO: [crosstalk] Dark. Yeah.
YB: Right. Right.
SO: So I -- I'd never experience that. I've always loved my complexion. I've never once wished to be lighter in my life. I mean, there's definitely were times in the summer, especially at summer camp, when the boys would be like, oh Sylvia's look like she got burnt when she was away this summer or like, oh, you know, da-da-da-da. Or like I would definitely get the oh, you're pretty for a dark skinned girl growing up. Or like, or even just seeing all of my high school best friends were very light skinned, right. So I was clearly dark in that scenario when it's like me and a bunch of Beyonce complexion-like girls and it's me. And in seeing even like when we would go to the movies or the mall or the dances, how they would get picked faster to me or whatever and like or even hear things like, oh, it's going to work out for me because, you know, to be considered pretty at your complexion you kind of have to be twice as pretty as the light skinned girls. But you are so it's fine. And like but like those things in school, like those are the things I would hear. So I do --d it is really interesting how we were able to continue to have those experiences. And then now kind of, to Scottie's point, somebody almost try to take them away from you.
SB: Because it's still tender.
SO: And be like, you know what I mean. You're like that never happened because we're in this evolved place where you're beautiful, obviously.
SB: [crosstalk] Please, please.
SO: And it's like, well that -- you know, so I think, I guess the point I'm trying to make is I do think that there's a lot more that goes to the dark or light skin experience than just what you look like.
YB: [crosstalk] Sure.
SO: It's the experiences, it's the things that happen to you on the field and all of those type of things.
YB: Sure. And again, it's in comparison. And it absolutely depends on where you grew up. You know, there are people who move to this country and become dark skinned or become light skinned because that wasn't their experience in their home country, you know. And so it's very much predicated upon the experiences that you have in this moment. But I also think that, like you said, we all have different stories. We all have different backgrounds. Every dark skinned woman didn't grow up hating her skin. You know, every, every light skinned woman didn't grow up thinking that she was too cute for everyone else, you know what I mean? Like, we all, we all had our different experiences. But, you know, I think it's also hard to admit, you know, in this moment where you are trying to exude some level of confidence, you know, and -- and receive that you are beautiful and that you have the potential to be beautiful. It's hard to wake that up and remember what it was like to be dark skinned in a space where no one saw that you were beautiful -- or at least until you saw, right. Or to be a child and not have dolls your complexion. Or not have any cartoon characters or any, you know, little child actresses your color at all whatsoever. Like, all of those things absolutely impacts your sense of self growing up. And so then you grow up and you become an adult and it still creeps in in its own little ways. Like I know amongst my own circle of friends and a lot of women that I know, I roll with a lot of baddies, a lot of women who know their worth and know their beauty.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: It doesn't change the fact that there's still pain and open wounds from childhood. And so many of my darker skinned friends, they are going to be the ones who have the flyest clothes, have the best of everything. It's still a performance.
SO: [crosstalk] Yes.
YB: There's still a performance.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: Whether you receive it or not, you still feel like you have to do twice as much --.
SO: Yeah.
YB: To be seen. Right.
SO: Yep.
SB: You had to overcompensate. Like I had to have the best personality. I had to be the nicest person.
YB: [crosstalk] Right.
SB: I had to be the best, even in high school, being the best girlfriend, right. Because I know he could have picked the light skinned girl. But he chose me. You know? I -- I have been plagued with this colorism thing for a very long time. I've always had to show up 10 times more than I think I should show up, like then I want to show up because I feel like I'm enough, but I'm just not enough for them. So I have to do more.
YB: And it's so interesting, Scottie, looking at you and your gorgeous self. I'm like, Scottie, how do you identify? You see yourself as dark skinned?
SB: Absolutely. Absolutely. My whole entire life I've been called tar baby.
YB: What?
SB: I've been called -- yes. Burnt toast. I've been called, I've been called a lot of things and -- woo, woo. Colorism --.
YB: It's okay, baby.
SB: It's hard. That's --.
YB: It's open. It's open.
SB: I'm shaking because it makes me so upset.
SO: Yeah.
YB: I'm sorry.
SB: And I understand, like, I'm not the darkest, of course.
SO: Right.
SB: And nobody should be put through what dark skinned people go through.
SO: Right.
SB: I just know that my sense of worth had to come around when I started to see myself because nobody would see me. You know, so I had to actually start seeing myself -- which is actually a good question for you, you did say, if I didn't see myself, then, you know, you would be a lot -- when did you see yourself? When did that happen?
YB: When dark skinned came in style. [laughs].
SB: Oh.
YB: I'm, I'm trying to think of when that was, you know, I'm trying to think of when that was. That exact moment is always going to stay with me because I feel like it started something.
SO: Right.
YB: I mean, up until that time there wasn't even a foundation my color. Like I was telling a friend who's a makeup artist who's always like, that is not your color. Because I'm so used to wherever there is foundation for Black women, I automatically just go to the end of the spectrum, pick it up and go, because that's as close as we're going to get.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Because coming up, what -- what do we have? Like, I wasn't going to fashion fair. So Black opal, maybe? I remember when IMAN's makeup line came out because, again. I can remember these moment because they were like monumental.
SO: [crosstalk] Yeah. Yes.
YB: They weren't colors for me. And so we think back to the 90s even I can remember the line. Many sisters had the line.
SO: [crosstalk] Yeah.
YB: Like, you know?
SO: Yeah.
YB: The foundation you put on did not match your, your complexion, but that's all you had. And so, you know, now I wear Fenty. I'm a fan of Bobby Brown. But like when Fenty came out, I remember going to Sephora, picking up the darkest one and coming home and being like, wow, that's actually not my color. That's actually much darker than me. And so my girlfriend, who's a makeup artist, is like, you are not on the end of the spectrum anymore. Like you have to take the time to try and match because we have all of these options. But again, it's just been my experience that there's no one darker than me.
SB: Right.
YB: And there's not makeup made for me. So, like, whenever it was the time where folks were on this sexual chocolate and, you know, all of a sudden calling sisters chocolate.
SB: Oh, that's there in the Wesley Snipes era?
YB: Yes, 90's, Wesley -- [laughter] you know.
SB: Snipes was out. [laughter] Denzel was out.
YB: Exactly. And mo -- and again, when we talk about the masculinization of Blackness and the feminization of whiteness, like that was a moment for the brothers. Sisters still had to catch up.
SO: Yeah.
YB: You know, we still we didn't we. I don't know. And my memory's a little shoddy, so y'all can help me. But I don't know that I remember the moment where dark skinned sisters were in style. Right. I just remember there becoming a time were finally, even though I recognize it, not so much as a compliment now, at the time, you're pretty for a dark skinned girl.
SO: Was growth?
YB: I took it.
SO: That was growth. Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
SO: Yeah.
YB: You know what I'm saying. So I can't pinpoint the moment. But even to go back to what brought the tears, Scottie like -- and I ask because I think this is why it's so important for us to talk about the diversity of Blackness, right. Which is also part of the reason why I wanted to do the book in the way that I did and to have pictures accompanying people's stories because it is not enough to close your eyes and say a Black person and have whatever image come up, represent a Black person. It is not enough to have your standard of light skin versus dark skin be the equation. Like it's a spectrum. And given our lived experiences, what is dark skinned to me is not the end all be all of dark skinned. And so I say that because even within our communities, we also do ourselves so much harm, right. And there's so much trauma and so much pain because like if I want to hold on to all of my pain and say that I had the worst experience. And Scottie, how dare you identify as dark skinned because you would have been picked over me.
SB: Right.
YB: So now this becomes beef between us as opposed to beef with the system.
SB: Right.
SO: Yeah.
YB: The system that keeps us out of visibility, right. The system that has us in a place to even be like fighting for limited attention because we only going to get but so much. But it is to say that within a particular context, again, your identity is in comparison to the people who are there. So you being dark skinned, I'm assuming in the Belizean context makes sense. Right?
SB: I think maybe this ring light is pretty bright. [laughter]
SO: Like to me and Deanii's point. Like, we definitely also got lighter a bit the more we became adults and were in the house.
SB: [crosstalk] Cus -- yeah.
SO: But if you look at like pictures of us in high school and in elementary school, it wasn't this exact shade. But also, to your point, like if were the darkest people in our school at that time --
YB: Sure.
SO: It's like whoever's at the end like to your point, the end falls off where it's seen.
YB: Right.
SO: So if Scott -- you know, if Scottie's the end at her very, you know, maybe LatinX High School or in the Bronx or, you know, middle school in the Bronx --.
YB: Right.
SO: Like then yes, she's going to get that heat.
YB: Right.
SO: And so I think that's to your point even about how colorism has shifted. But you cannot erase what we went through when we were not the most poppin' or whatever else in the street. And I think that's where this conversation is going. But I also wanted to ask --.
YB: [crosstalk] But -- But it's also --.
SO: [crosstalk] Oh sorry, go ahead.
YB: No, I was going to say but it's also to say that that's still not a majority experience. Like as your talking like I'm still not experiencing people not wanting to be light skinned. Like I don't know if it's generational, you know what I mean? Like, I haven't seen it as much, you know --.
SO: [crosstalk] Listen. Listen. My -- my darker light skinned friends look with me at disgust when I call them light skinned. I'm like, girl, what you mean? Like you were always light -- when you -- when did this become a thing? They're like, but you know I think for them and I think from -- now, you know, only picking on what has been said to me, it's like I guess their trauma has been not being considered Black or seen as Black enough.
YB: [crosstalk] Mhmm, mhmm, mhmm.
SO: And in this time where it's very Black lives matter. It's noth -- want to be very evident. Like I am Black. Don't erase my Blackness by calling me lighter than I am.
YB: Right.
SO: But it's like --
YB: And one doesn't have anything to do with the other necessarily. Right?
SO: I agree. I think that's that trauma, right. For us is very like beauty standards and like societal.
YB: [crosstalk] Right. Right.
SO: And I think with them it's very identity based and like, who do they belong to. And I think those, you know, two --.
YB: [crosstalk] I think, yeah.
SO: Separate issues there. But it is very much a thing in the Millennial -- I don't know if Gen Z's doing it, but like --.
YB: [crosstalk] No.
SO: I guess Gen X's isn't doing it.
YB: [crosstalk] No
SO: But like Millennial light skinned. It's almost like the point where we laugh about it. But it's really interesting. And I wanted -- but I wanted to also, cus we mention Wesley and Denzel and them. And I wanted to kind of ask, how do you think the conversations and experiences around colorism change across gender?
YB: Oh, it's absolutely impacted by gender. You can't talk about colorism is going talk about white supremacy. We didn't do this to ourselves.
SO: Yes, it's very true.
YB: And so when you talk about white supremacy with whiteness being at the helm at the top of the hierarchy and Blackness being at the bottom, we recognize a spectrum in between. Right. And so colorism is very much about associating value with our bodies based upon our proximity to whiteness. What happens when you put gender into the mix? Think of the moment, historical moment, where literal the value of Black bodies -- it was based upon what we look like on the auction block.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: How do I determine whether or not I want to buy this Negro, right? Where the Blacker you are, I should be able to assume that you fresh off the boat, closer to Africa, closer to being, you know, an animal, a brute, a barbarian, so I can work you to death. That worked for men. Right. So for men's value, as Black men, predicated on the Blackness of their skin. When we talk about femininity and what it means to be feminine and beautiful and whatever gentle and all of these other things that we want to associate with what it means to be feminine, our models for femininity have been women who were what? They were privileged. They were sitting in the house. The sun absolutely didn't hit them. They were wearing gloves and shit. You know, like they're in the house.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Absolutely not outside. And so the lighter you are, the more feminine you are. This is why when it flips, you get the pretty boy jokes. Right, because to be light skinned is to be effeminate. Right. And to be dark skinned is to be more masculine, which is why you always have a dark skinned mammy.
SB: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Right? And so the gender piece is very much a part of this conversation because it works out differently. Again, dark skin -- and it's not to negate -- I'm all over the place, but this is one of the things when we talk about things that make us violent -- and I'll say it publicly -- this is one of the things that annoys me the most about Bill Duke's Dark Girls. Because for as Black as Bill Duke is, he could have gave us something very powerful on dark boys. To speak from his own lived experience. Because we do not talk about gender and colorism. This always becomes an issue for women. Brothers have their own wounds when it comes to colorism, but we don't talk about that. And then we're confused about why they, quote unquote, pick who they pick. Because what's it going to mean to have a light skinned sister on your arm? Is that going to say something about your value? Is it that you really love her? Is that you really find her more attractive or do you need her to give you some clout?
SB: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Right. Some affirmation. Does it affirm that you're able to choose her? To pull?
SO: [crosstalk] Yeah.
YB: You see what I'm saying? And vice versa.
SO: [crosstalk] Right. Ooh.
YB: Right. And vice versa, because then when you come to women, we're now thinking about what our children are going to look like. And if I'm dark skinned and I grew up with a particular level of pain, let me not have children to experience that same level of pain. So let me get a light skinned brother. And in my case, very similarly, not that that was ever my thought or intention, right. But what I know is that light skinned brothers love me and it gets on my nerves.
SO: Talk about it. Because I was literally about to say --.
SB: [crosstalk] Woo-ooo. [laughter]
SO: That's always been -- that gets on my nerves. But like I didn't mean it -- I didn't mean to say that part.
YB: [crosstalk] No, no. [laughter]
SO: But I'm just saying that like, I've always observed and been interested in that very much in high school, all the boys that wanted to talk to me or date me were light skinned.
SB: That's it.
SO: And all that the dark -- and then all the dark skinned boys want to light skinned girls. And then all my light skinned friends wanted dark skinned boys. And a lot of the dark skinned girls I knew wanted light skinned. It was always the opposite. [laughs]
YB: It's, it's become -- it's become a schemata. But when I say it gets on my nerves, no offence brother, [laughter] y'all can love me. But it's the same --
SO: [crosstalk] No, she told y'all, she told y'all that --.
SB: [crosstalk] I don't want it. No thank you.
SO: [crosstalk] I don't want y'all, no more. Getting on my nerves. Get out. [laughter]
YB: [crosstalk] But no. Let me -- let me tell you what I don't want. What always becomes painfully clear that it's not about me, it's about what I represent. So that if you have issues with your Black identity, right, if you feel like people are questioning your Blackness, then I'm just a performance piece.
SO: [crosstalk] Wow. Wow. Wow.
YB: I'm just here to prove how Black you are because you got the Blackest one. It has nothing to do with me.
SO: [crosstalk] Wow.
YB: So, again, you can love me, but like, I'm not here to heal you. I'm not here to to vouch for your Blackness just by --
SB: Make you Blacker.
YB: Right.
SB: Yeah.
YB: That's what it feels like. In the same way that white men are attracted to me. Like I side-eye everybody. And that in and of itself is a painful problem to have because what ends up happening is that you're constantly questioning whether someone's attraction to you is real.
SB: Mm hmm.
YB: Because you're too busy wondering about -- look at how [laughters] -- leaves you wondering about --
SO: [crosstalk] She's close -- she's closing her eyes. [laughter] She's avoiding eye contact with me on purpose.
SB: [crosstalk] It does. [laughter].
SO: [crosstalk] Scottie's eyes are closed.
SB: [crosstalk] It does. That's --
YB: Y'all got -- ?
SB: I -- I stuffer with that.
YB: Yeah? Yeah.
SB: Like I understand why I’m -- I fuck with me, right. Excuse my language. I know why I like me.
YB: [crosstalk] Right. [laughs].
SB: Right. I'm cute -- I get it. [laughter].
YB: Yes.
SB: But because I know how we are conditioned here. I want to know why you want to fuck with me. What's that for?
YB: Right. But you know what's so hard about that, though, right, as we attempt to like, work on our own stuff, when I think about the men I'm attracted to, if they were to ask me to articulate why, it would be hard for me to like -- I just like you.
SO: Yeah.
YB: You know what I'm saying. Like I'm attracted to you.
SO: [crosstalk] It is hard.
YB: I don't -- I don't know how to put language to that.[laughter] And so, you know --.
SO: It is!
YB: I feel like sometimes in so doing, we put people in an impossible predicament --.
SB: [crosstalk] Yeah.
YB: Because how do you articulate why you fuck with me? You know, like -- and so, again, I own that as my own stuff. But giving context as to why, because there's so many people, whether they want to name it and a lot of people may not know it, right. When I look at, you know, in celeb world and, you know, you see a rapper, an artist, whomever, and you see the girls he's scrolling through or who he's trying to pull or who he ends up marrying or who ends up on Real Housewives of whatever city. [laughter] Like it's -- at this point, it's a script, which makes me question, do you really like her or is that about what she represents for you?
SB: [crosstalk] This is what I'm saying.
YB: And again, this is what I'm saying. If you are a little nappy headed Black boy from wherever who came up and now you've got all this money and all this power, it's the same way you go out and buy a Maserati.
SO: Wow.
YB: You gotta get you a light skinned girl with a big booty and a little waist. Cus that shows your value. You were a -- I did it. Right? And so for me, it's like I know that I'm probably projecting my own stuff into that, but I'm very aware because it seems like a script.
SB: [crosstalk] Yeah. I --.
YB: So then what, what happens to the rest of us?
SB: Absolutely. 100 percent.
YB: Thinking to my homeboy in the grocery store. Do you even have the capacity to see beauty in dark skin?
SB: Hello!
YB: Or does light skin equate beauty? I remember about a girlfriend here in Philly in, in grad school who's light skinned and she would talk about the same kind of like, suspicion of men being attracted to her. Because she's like, yo, I could be walking up the street and a car could be a block and a half down and you beepin' the horn. You can't even see my face. You don't even know what I look like. All you can possibly see is either the shape of my body or the color -- the complexion of my skin. And you're ready to holla at me. So again, when I say, can you see beauty? Are there particular things about a person that you see that you're attracted to? Or is it once you have light skin, all bets are off, you're beautiful? Because again --- and I say this, you know, at the risk of sounding shady or what have you, but every light skinned sister ain't cute. In the same way that every dark skinned sister's not cute.
SB: As long as you say that last part, because, Lord, you know, they would have had it. They would had a field day. [laughter].
SO: [crosstalk] Right. They woulda had it. And while we're covering our basis -- and while we're at it covering our basis. Yes, Black men, I know some of you love us more. Yes, I know.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes. Yes.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: [crosstalk] There's Black men listening who are like, I love me a dark skinned Black woman! What y'all taking about?
YB: [crosstalk] I know.
SO: [crosstalk] I know. We know. We know.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes, yes.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: [crosstalk] We wanna put those --
YB: [crosstalk] We acknowledge it. All of it.
SO: [crosstalk] We just wanna put those out there. [laughs]
SB: [crosstalk] Right. Please Lord.
SO: So they can stay out of our mentions collectively.
SB: Right.
SO: But I just, you know --.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: We understand that. [laughter] But too, like to your point about it, it's just so much and it's so deep and like it does impact how we how we view our body image. Colorism is a big part of that. We just had an episode -- our last episode was about body image as it pertains to weight and diet culture and sizes. When we thought about how -- what our insecurities are based in, a lot of it does come from the childhood teasing that we talk about. They go hand in hand with our insecurity, the weight and our culture. So Scottie's nodding like, yes. Cus it's like literally --.
SB: Less the body image and more so this, for me, you know, my nanny, God rest her soul and I love my nanny to death, love her. But, you know, she was more worried about my hair because she knew that my mom was with a dark skinned man. So she knew, okay, well, we already know she dark skinned. What about this hair? How is she going to be beautiful? Like, what are we going -- you know. And I used to hear small things like that and growing up. And if I wore my hair and afro, God forbid, it is not acceptable. You need to put a comb through it. You got to do something to it because you're making me look bad.
YB: [crosstalk] Right.
SB: You're making us look bad, you know. So I think for a long time, even with therapy, I still carry on those kinds of what, delayed responses of trauma.
YB: [crosstalk] Of course.
SB: Where it's like I got to be considered pretty, I have to be considered be -- whatever this beauty standard is, I have to live up to it or else I'm ugly, you know?
YB: [crosstalk] Of course, of course.
SB: And that was something that was forever in my life. But like, let's talk about like colorism in pop culture for a little bit, okay?
YB: [crosstalk] Okay.
SB: You know, who gains the fame and who gets casted in roles is still linked to someone's complexion. Like what do you think are some real solutions in places like Netflix who, you know, who's been called out for this time and time again, and other places too, what can they do to address stuff like this?
YB: Well, I know that there are lots of conversations that have been happening in a lot of, you know, media spaces, at least from the perspective of at least beginning to understand what colorism is. That's but one part. Be open to it, right? But the simple answer is like, you have to cast responsibly. Like you have to, once you have this knowledge, what do you do with it? If we give you the entire history and cultural context to understand the impact and the violence and the trauma that is, you know, projected into our lives because of colorism, to cast responsibly is to say I'm going to do something different, right. And I don't know what I hear or what I continue to hear that -- and it's not even just about, oh, all of the show runners or all the people who are in charge of casting are white, so they don't know. It's not even about that.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes.
YB: Because some of them are Black. It's not about who's in the position, it's about the ideology that they operate from.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes.
YB: And you can be Black and continue to be an agent of white supremacy.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: [crosstalk] Oooh! That --.
YB: [crosstalk] It doesn't matter.
SO: [crosstalk] That part.
YB: Right. So. [laughter] So what people are thinking about is money, ultimately. And they're thinking about the audience as little robots who operate from the same, you know, space over and over and over again. And so if this is always sold, why change it? Like so, it's in the same way that when people talk about, how do we dismantle white supremacy, how do we undo racism? What are you willing to give up, right? So for people in power, people with privilege, if you really want to change what's happening, you have to be willing to give something up. Like these, these scales --.
SO: [crosstalk] Shift on their own.
SB: Aren't going to shift if you hold on to your power and expect everything to somehow just rise to some level of equity, you have to give some shit up. Right. So what that would mean then is, I have to be willing to not make as much money on this show. But what I'm committed to is to show a different image. Even if it doesn't make me as much money. You got to be willing to give something up to give us a new image. You don't even give us enough credit to say the audience might actually like this. Why don't you try it out and see? You won't do that because you want to hold on to your money. We always talk about race, we always talk about gender. We do not want to think critically about how capitalism is all up and through this.
SO: [crosstalk] All up and through this.
And it comes to money as well. Right. So if the model of light skinned woman meets dark skinned man, and insert Black family story here, and we are the world looking children. If it worked for The Cosby Show, we're going to keep doing that now. Give us something else. Where's our dark skinned mamas?
SB: Where are our dark skinned love interests? Where are those?
YB: They end up being indie. I really think that's why so many of us fell in love with Issa Rae.
SO: Yeah.
YB: You know, because color wasn't slapping us in the face. It just felt more regular.
SO: [crosstalk] Right, right.
YB: It's okay, we -- we like regular. [laughter]
SO: Right. It exists in our day to day. We're suddenly just erased when it's on the screen. But like, we're there!
YB: [crosstalk] Right.
SO: We're here. Like. [laughter].
YB: Right. I just don't think the media is willing to take that risk. And then also we connect this to even everything we've talked about, you know, in terms of like family and social status as well. It's like what would it mean for me to not have a light skinned person on my proverbial arm? You know what I mean? Like, it's something about the value that we continue to associate with light skin. It's like, if we don't put light skinned people in this Black thing, like, is it -- is it going to be good? Are people going to -- and not just white folks, Black folks.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Are Black folks going to watch it if we don't see what we're so used to seeing? And so it is absolutely a problem. It's to the point now where, you know, some show will come out and people will be up in arms on social media about how there's so much colorism. And it's a problem. And like, I'm like, unmoved. And I say I'm unmoved because we complain. We'll hashtag the hell out of it and we'll watch it. They have no reason to stop doing it because they're not losing money. We talk a good boycott game. We're not boycotting it. We're going to watch it.
SO: Mhmm.
YB: So long as we watch it because it's Black, why should they care?
SO: Cus it's Black and we're bored. [laughs] But --
SB: But isn't that a little bit -- because people don't prioritize colorism?
YB: Oh, sure.
SB: I understand when you're saying like, oh, you know, it's a white supremacy thing. But to get everybody on board, right, to fight white supremacy for me is the struggle, right, where I'm trying to explain to some of my -- some, again, some -- of my light skinned brothers and sisters [laughter] who don't quite understand colorism. It has to be extremely aggressive for them to understand colorism. They can't understand the microaggressions behind it either.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
SB: And I think they refuse to do it because they don't want to be -- they might have to reflect on themselves and be like, oh, shit, I do the same thing. Yeah.
YB: But the parallel, the parallel as you're talking is in the same way white folks don't have to recognize their privilege and struggle with doing so.
SB: [crosstalk] Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: I think it's the same way for light skinned folks --.
SB: [crosstalk] Thank you.
SO: It's the same.
YB: Don't have to reckon -- because when you say they don't understand colorism, what I was going to say to you, without interrupting was, why should they? Where would they have learned about colorism?
SO: That the privileged part. Yep.
YB: Right. If you're in a -- if you're not privileged position --.
SO: [crosstalk] That's what it means. Yes.
YB: You don't -- you're not move to. Not until it becomes a movement and now everyone wants to sit down and be woke. So here we have to teach you what it is. But for many of us, we knew what colorism was before we knew the word colorism.
SB: Thank you, God.
YB: Because it was our lived experience.
SO: Ooh! That's it.
YB: In the same way that Black folks knew what racism was before we knew the language of racism.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: Because it was our experience. We had no choice but to know what it is.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: When you're in a privileged position, you have the option --
SB: [crosstalk] Right! The luxury, yes.
YB: To turn a blind eye.
SO: That's literally -- and I do think it's very hard for any type of oppressed person, in this case Black, light skinned, you know, light skinned Black people, whatever, to realize that's the privilege. I think it's just hard sometimes for people to understand their privilege when it's not the ultimate white supremacy privilege. But I do think that that's what -- this is what this learning process is about, because we have to get past that.
YB: Part of the resistance of learning about it, though, is that when you confront something, you have to do something about it. In the same way that it's hard for men to recognize their gender privilege, for whites to recognize their racial privilege, for light skinned folks to recognize their privilege. Like once you are confronted with it, the struggle is now, what can I do? What do I do? And when someone tells you what you can do, you ultimately have to admit that you don't want to.
SB: Whoo! Oooh! [laughter]. Whoo! Whoo! Whoo! Ha ha!
YB: [crosstalk] You don't want to.
SB: [crosstalk] You don't want to.
SB: Right.
SO: Baby, you don't want to. So stop bothering me, asking me
YB: If we're going to be honest, like if people really want to change, it has to start with honesty. Say you don't want to give up the privilege.
SB: Yeah.
YB: I can imagine -- and again, if I recognize your humanity, I can imagine how difficult it would be to give up your privilege.
SO: Yeah!
YB: But you can't feign ignorance. Please don't do that. Don't insult us and act like you don't know what it is. Just say you don't want to give it up.
SO: Ooh, I'm so glad you said this because it lends itself to the last question we were going to ask before we go be -- which is, on a personal note, because we were talking about the industry and media and we moved ourselves into people, the people, just real life. Like in addition to therapy, like when we talk about what the healing process and progress looks like as we move forward, to the person listening who is like, I do want to do something, like I do want to give up something. What's a small thing? Like what does that look like for the everyday person if they want to leave this episode? Like what is a tangible thing that I can do to make this better?
YB: It's hard to say in a day to day experience. Like I think of all the different ways that I've seen folks who are of a lighter complexion give something up, that can also just be by let me bring you into the room, sis. What I'm going to do is I'm going to let that opportunity go and say there's somebody else you need to speak to. Like I know a sister, I won't name her, [laughter] she could very well be a voice about colorism. But she says she's not going to do that because she knows what her physical presence will do to that conversation. Not everybody is willing to do that.
SB: Yep.
YB: Right. I know what my physical presentation is going to do to this conversation, so I'm not going to do that to folks. I'm not going to be the light skinned woman who stands at the podium to talk about colorism. Right. That might be heard differently from somebody of a different complexion. Right. In the same way, like I brought up the example of Bill Duke, maybe you shouldn't be the one to talk about dark girls.
SB: Just a thought.
YB: Maybe it would have been more powerful of you talk about dark -- dark boys. Maybe. Right. For executives at at the table, right, when it comes time to talk about Blackness and Black shows -- and I know we don't have enough time -- but even in this realm of diversity, folks just want credit for check, we have a Black person on the show.
SO: [crosstalk] Right.
YB: Which Black person?
SO: [crosstalk] Yes, Exactly.
YB: Which one? What do they look like? What's going to be the impact of their presence on screen? Who is the person at the table who can think critically? Because there's a diversity in Blackness. Even when we -- let's go there, LatinX. Who -- is J-Lo the only Latina? That's the only one we get to see? When they're Latinas who look like me. Why you don't put them on the screen? That's too complicated? Because you, you don't want us to think. You don't want us to think critically. So let's drop in the thing that is familiar to you. No questions asked. Keep moving. Black looks like this, Latino looks like this, Asian looks like this. Move on.
SB: [crosstalk] Yep.
YB: And it just flattens our experience.
SO: [crosstalk] Yeah.
YB: And so what we need is our people at the table, whatever the table is, to be thinking critically and to make sure that we're all represented in a variety of roles. We can't always have the dark skinned villain.
SO: Yeah.
SB: The dark skinned funny friend.
YB: Exactly.
SO: My role in real life. [laughs]
YB: Exactly. So I think in terms of everyday folks, if they're questions, I think as much as folks are in this, you know, this moment of wokeness and everybody wants to learn how to be anti-racist, I want you to learn how to be anti-colorist.
SB: Whew! Well?
YB: Let's do that work as well. It's as important. They are not disconnected. They are intertwined.
SO: I'm so glad we said that, because even when I think back to the bigger question I wanted answered about how this colorism has evolved and suddenly people wanting to attach themselves to the darker end of a spectrum are not really like go away. I think we kind of answered it in the idea of because if they aren't brown and they are light skinned, then they have to realize, oh, I have to give something up and I don't want to.
SB: [crosstalk] Exactly.
SO: But if I say --.
SB: [crosstalk] Louder, Sylvia.
SO: That this is it then maybe I don't have to. Like that's what this all came around me thinking. Like, the bigger point is, like --.
YB: [crosstalk] Right. Right.
SO: If you don't acknowledge that you're light skinned and you don't have to give anything up.
YB: It's the fish in the water metaphor. Like you got to get out the water. Like, I think it's also hard for folks to recognize that they even have privilege because what they'll say is, I'm Black.
SO: Yep.
YB: And I experience this, too. And this doesn't say -- and that might be true. But within that, you have to recognize that your skin color absolutely gives you privilege.
SO: [crosstalk] Yes.
YB: And so to get out of the water means that you are able to get out of that and look at colorism as it exists and recognize all of the ways that you might actually have privilege. It shouldn't be my responsibility to point it out to you.
SB: [crosstalk] Oh my god. Sounds familiar. Don't you think?
SO: Sounds like my life. [laughter] [crosstalk] Sounds like all of ours, for sure.
SB: Sounds familiar with what we do with white people. That's what I'm saying. It sound -- it sounds truly familiar.
SO: [crosstalk] Oh, yeah.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SO: [crosstalk] Yeah.
SB: We have to continue to teach you about things when it's just right there, it's readily available. It's right there.
YB: And so if you understand that as a Black person --
SO: Don't turn a blind eye to it.
YB: That's what I'm saying. This is why for me, I will not separate a conversation about colorism from white supremacy.
SO: Yeah.
YB: Because you understand how it works when we say it's a Black and white. Now understand how it works when we say it's light and dark. Those things aren't separated. They're absolutely intertwined.
SO: Thank you so much, Dr.
SB: Thank you.
SO: Yaba Blay because this --.
YB: You're welcome. You're welcome.
SO: I love that we kind of went on the journey together because I do kind of feel like it kind of did come full circle, the conversation and some of our earlier points. And I've learned so much, but I've also feel -- I think me and Scottie both feel very --.
SB: Validated. I felt validated.
SO: Validated! That the word.
YB: Good.
SO: Yeah.
SB: And I be driving myself crazy.
YB: [crosstalk] No.
SB: So I'm like, you know, I can't be wilin'.
YB: No.
SB: I know I'm not crazy.
YB: The thing that I say to you as a big sis is to save yourself.
SO: Tell it, tell her louder.
YB: It is a long and painful journey, but you will get to the point that you recognize that you are only willing to invest your energy and your spirit in certain conversations with the people that matter. If people choose to be ignorant, let them be ignorant, because guess what? Harriet would have never got free --
SO: Hey!
YB: If she was trying to convince people that they needed to come. What did she do? She let them -- she said, stay. Shit, stay. I'm about to go. [laughs]
SO: [crosstalk] [laughs] I hope she said it just like that.
SB: [crosstalk] Shit, stay.
SO: [crosstalk] Shit, stay!
YB: But I got to be out. You can't save everybody. And I get it because it's so painful. I tell people this all the time. I learned how to fight white people. Fighting my people hurts different.
SB: Oh, man. Let me tell you.
SO: [crosstalk] Ooh! It's painful. I feel every hit, every scratch, every cut.
YB: [crosstalk] It hurts different.
SO: It's like we’re fighting myself. I don't like it.
YB: It hurts different. But what I learned the hard way is that some of them you just got to release it. It's not your job because you said it yourself. It's trauma.
SB: [crosstalk] Yeah. All the time.
YB: You can't retraumatize yourself trying to teach and trying to show people. Because once you are committed to a position, you're never going to get it. You won't allow for it. So let them go.
SB: Right.
SO: Yeah.
SB: I just don't want the next woman to fall victim to it, you know, and that's what makes the -- breaks my heart over and over again.
YB: [crosstalk] Right, right.
SB: And like, I've had to do it for a long time.
YB: [crosstalk] Right.
SB: But you're right. You're right.
YB: Right. And so what I did, instead of fighting the people, the naysayers and the people who would exact the violence, I switched my energy to affirming us. So, yes, there are people in this world who are going to hurt you. But let me, let's -- let's gird ourselves up, sis. How do we affirm ourselves?
SO: I can't stop that man from hurting you next, but I can stop you from believing it maybe or feeling it.
SB: [crosstalk] Absolutely.
SO: [crosstalk] Or thinking that's the absolute truth.
SB: [crosstalk] Yes, absolutely.
SO: The perspective.
YB: That part.
SO: [crosstalk] Yes. Whew!
SB: Yes. Turning your back on them and actually facing the people who matter.
YB: [crosstalk] Yes.
SB: And that's what I had to do.
SO: [crosstalk] Yep, yep.
SB: Absolutely.
SO: Yeah, absolutely. Ooh!
SB: Dr. Yaba Blay --.
YB: Yes.
SB: I had a great time. [laughter]
SO: We had a great time. Can you talk to our listeners where they can see or find your work?
YB: Sure, sure, sure. Sure. My website, yabablay.com. And I'm on the socials as @yabablay.
SB: Book her. [laughter] Get her on all the networks. You hear me? We need this broadcasted everywhere. My sis is everywhere but I need her to be everywhere. You hear me?
[Music in]
YB: Yes
SO: Okay. Thank you.
SB: Thank you.
SO: Thank you so much for this conversation.
YB: Thank you.
SO: All right, guys, that's our show, Big thanks again to Dr. Yaba Blay and thank you all for tuning in to our, eh-heh-heh, New York Times featured podcast. [laughs].
SB: Absolutely, absolutely. Without a doubt. Okay? Our show is a production of Pineapple Street Studios in partnership with Netflix and Strong Black Lead. Shout out to our team. Our Managing Producer is Agerenesh Ashagre and our Lead Producer, Jess Jupiter. Our music is by Amanda Jones. Special thanks to Max Linsky and Jenna Weiss-Berman.
SO: Make sure you share all your thoughts with us on the episode using the #okaynowlisten. And follow Strong Black Lead on the socials @strongblacklead. Don't forget to follow us too. I'm @sylviaobell.
SB: And I'm @newyorktimesownonthesundayedition @scottiebeam. [laughter] Okay. And Sylvia Obell. You could find this on there, too. I don't know if you can look [laughter], you know, look back on Sunday's edition and just check that out. But you can also check us out on Twitter about it to. The picture's up there and all that.
SO: [crosstalk] The digital -- it's on the website. You know, if you couldn't catch the print version --
SB: [crosstalk] Oh, it's definitely on the website!
SO: [crosstalk] It's definitely available on the website. [laughs]
SB: You can check that out. It exists. Shout out to us.
SO: Oh!
SB: Okay, shout out to us, me and you, Sylvia. Shout out to us.
SO: Do it girl.
SB: Listen. Until next time, folks, we did it.
SO: [crosstalk] Until next time, stay blessed y'all. [laughs]
SB: Until next newspaper, all right, stay blessed.
SO: All right. Goodbye. [laughs]
SB: Until next print.
SO: All right. Somebody cut off her mic.
SB: Until the next billboard.
SO: [laughs] I'm hitting stop on my recorder.
[Music out]