On this episode, we remember the lives of Andre Harrell, Little Richard, and Betty Wright, three legends we lost this past week. We also give thanks to Erykah Badu and Jill Scott for offering us some love and warmth during their Verzuz battle. Then, we interview Nadia Hallgren, the director of the new Netflix documentary, Becoming, which follows the book tour of our forever First Lady, Michelle Obama. And lastly, a reflection on the tragic murder of Ahmaud Arbery and the ever present burdens of being Black in America. Follow us on Twitter: @SylviaObell @ScottieBeam @StrongBlackLead
Okay, Now Listen Ep 2 Transcript
[00:00:02] [Music In].
[00:00:03] Scottie Beam: You're listening to. Okay, Now Listen, a bi-weekly show where we chat about what's on our minds, what we're bingeing and what's blowing up our timelines.
[00:00:09] Sylvia Obell: I'm Sylvia Obell. I'm a culture writer, host, producer and lover of Beyoncé.
[00:00:15] Scottie: And I'm Scottie Beam, a media personality, content creator, music enthusiast and wing connoisseur.
[00:00:24] Sylvia: [laughs] You had any wings this weekend, girl? How you been?
[00:00:26] Scottie: You know what, I did. I fried chicken! I fried chicken wings. And I feel great.
[00:00:32] [Music Out]
[00:00:32] Sylvia: [crosstalk] You fried chicken wings?
[00:00:32] Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes -- I cooked, that's the first thing.
[00:00:36] Sylvia: [crosstalk] You cooked?
[00:00:35] Scottie: Thank you.
[00:00:37] Sylvia: I'm over here like Savon in Love Jones. Cooked! You cooked what? [laughs] Darius. What you cook?
[00:00:42] Scottie: [crosstalk] Wings. I made wings. And not the Air Fryer way because I do have an Air Fryer. And yes, they are the truth. OK. But I actually made it in actual like oil and shit. It's really good.
[00:00:56] Sylvia: Dang! Did you get popped?
[00:00:58] Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes, so good.
[00:00:59] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Did you -- you made out with burns?
[00:01:00] Scottie: [crosstalk] I did. I did. I did. I got popped. It felt great. It was a beautiful experience. I want everybody to feel how I felt this week.
[00:01:10] Sylvia: Wow so this quarantine got you cooking, huh?
[00:01:11] Scottie: Yeah. Got me cooking. You know, taking naps. Oh, I'm doing open mic on my Instagram. So that's been fun.
[00:01:21] Sylvia: Yes. I've enjoyed some of those.
[00:01:23] Scottie: [crosstalk] Been doing -- Thank you. I appreciate. I love your commentary. [laughter] I'm always here for it. Thank you for everybody who participates. Yeah, but Sylvia, how are you, sis? Oh my God, by the way, talking about cook. Talk about cooking, honey. Like what the fuck?
[00:01:37] Sylvia: [crosstalk] I've been -- I've been you know, I've fallen back in love with my love for cooking. Cause like, I really -- it's been -- like a let me tell you from everybody from like my mother being shocked [laughs] to like my sister being like, so you've been doing this all the time and we never got to benefit? But my whole thing about cooking, well I usually kept it to myself because I never wanted to have to do when I didn't want to. And normally, if people know that you can do some things, they always are asking you to do so. Especially in black households. But [laughs].
[00:02:07] Scottie: Wow. Yes.
[00:02:07] Sylvia: I've been like -- I think for me, the thing that cooking that's helping with the times, it helps take my mind off of things. Like if I have to go through the process of making something, especially new things. So it's kind of been like a meditation in a sense. Like, like where I'm like, okay, I'm making something new. So I have to follow steps and instructions. So I have to put all my attention on that. And because I'm over here making new things versus just the same, you know, basic dishes I've been making through just, you know, regular life, people are like, Dang! I didn't know you could do all that.
[00:02:35] Scottie: [crosstalk] I know. Some of these ingredients I have only seen on Food Network. So I was like, wow. [laughter] Where are you going to buy these things? Like what Trader Joe's -- what? I don't even know what Trader Joe's has inside because I've never been. But like the other places. Whole Foods.
[00:02:50] Sylvia: Yeah. We know -- what's interesting with a food hack, which has been helping me, is using services that will send you all the ingredients for meals specifically and then you can make those meals. So that way I'm never being left out of like what I need for certain dishes.
[00:03:06] Sylvia: Wow, that is great. That's a cute little hack.
[00:03:09] Sylvia: But yeah, but no, cute. So yay. Yay to cookin. I'm very impressed that you're cooking. How does your quarantine partner enjoy the -- how did they enjoy the food?
[00:03:19] Scottie: They enjoyed it very much.
[00:03:20] Sylvia: OK. [laughs]
[00:03:21] Scottie: Yes, I do -- I do cook though. I cook often -- often. Not as often as my quarantine partner but you know, I do enough. I don't enjoy it as much as everyone else. But I love when everybody cooks for me. So do look out for me coming to your house when this COVID thing is over. And I want you to cook because --.
[00:03:40] Sylvia: [crosstalk] [inaudible].
[00:03:40] Scottie: [crosstalk] We order out all the time. So now -- Yes. So now I want that pizza thing you made.
[00:03:47] Sylvia: My pizza -- flatbread with shrimp. Yeah, it was tasty.
[00:03:49] [Music In]
[00:03:54] Scottie: All right. Now it's time for Timeline Takes the part of the show where we get into what's happening on our timelines. Sylvia, what do we start with first?
[00:04:03] Sylvia: I feel like it's only right and respectful to talk about the two legends we lost at the top of the weekend. The news broke that Andre Harrell had passed away. Then early Saturday, we woke up to the news a Little Richard had passed away. And the conversation on the timeline really just became about these two icons who we lost and the culture had lost and what that means for us. Something -- a common thread I saw in both of those stories that stuck out to me was how we the culture, we black people had to make sure that these two men were being remembered correctly. Like we saw a lot of Andre Harrell just being attached as the man who gave us Diddy. When it's like Andre Harrell started Uptown, was the head of Motown for a while. He gave us way many more artists than Diddy, from Mary J. Blige to Jodeci to Heavy D, Al B. Sure and more. And continued to be an adviser and mentor and just the start of -- for so many people's careers, up until today. Like put some respect on that man's name. Scottie, I know you know, you've worked a lot with Revolt, so you've worked with Andre Harrell. Can you talk a bit about what you feel like his impact has been and, what kind of loss this is really for us?
[00:05:14] Scottie: Well, it was -- it was truly a pleasure to work with Andre Harrell. I don't know a soul that is more passionate about the culture than him. Every time we spoke, every time, he was very clear on his intention of making sure that black stories and black people were amplified and making sure that black music really was something that we had to take care of and protect. And he was very big on that. I worked with him um, doing State of the Culture. He never missed a meeting. Never missed a conference call.
[00:05:49] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Love that.
[00:05:49] Scottie: [crosstalk] He was very dedicated. And he really, really cared about black talent.
[00:05:54] Sylvia: Our deepest prayers and condolences to his family, his son Gianni and everybody who, you know, who was super close to him, who are going to now have to deal with this loss. I can't, you know, all my prayers are with you guys. And then less than 12 hours later, news broke that the architect of rock 'n' roll, Little Richard, had died. One thing that I knew was gonna happen with him that we saw immediately was how were they going to go about what they were calling this man and what he did for rock 'n' roll. Because the whites love to not give black people for -- credit for rock 'n' roll because then, then they would have to admit how many of them stole it from us.
[00:06:32] Scottie: Fuck Elvis Presley. Fuck him. Y'all can say what y'all want. Tweet me. Text me. [laughter] Email me. Fuck him. He had nothing to do. Nothing to do with rock 'n' roll. Go ahead. Sorry, Sylvia.
[00:06:46] Sylvia: No, no it's real. And I think that's the thing with Little Richard where it's like when the literal fo -- originator of this shit who you can see and find pictures of him with the Beatles when they were nobody. Cause he gave -- like he helped them figure out who they were and -- and all of this other stuff. Like he knew that as a black man in rock 'n' roll, the whites -- people were going to try to erase him from it, as much as he saw them or try to erase him from it live and in the moment. So he always made sure to let people know, like, this is what I did. These are my contributions. And as our good friend Nayima said on Twitter. He was one of the originators of reminding people what the fuck you did.
[00:07:29] Scottie: Right.
[00:07:29] Sylvia: Because he knows that history often races black people's contribution. And he was not going to let himself be erased. And then -- so for that to be how much he stood for himself, whether it was clips from the Grammys, where he yelling at people how they never gave him one. Or at like documentaries where he was talking about, you know, how he started this shit or even when he wrote his own stuff for Rolling Stone's greatest artist of all time lists and all of those things, because he knew nobody was going to be able to give him the credit he deserved better than himself. And he owned his narrative. And I think there's such a lesson there.
[00:08:05] Scottie: We see it so much with like Sister Rosetta Tharpe. Right. We see it with Chuck Berry. We see it with people whom like, don't get the flowers, still don't get the flower.
[00:08:17] Sylvia: Still.
[00:08:17] Scottie: Y'all give Beach Boys these fucking flowers all day until y'all blue in the mother fucking face --.
[00:08:20] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Rolling Stone.
[00:08:20] Scottie: [crosstalk] Rolling Stones, these flowers --.
[00:08:22] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Beatles.
[00:08:22] Scottie: [crosstalk] And all of that shit. All of that shit. None of that shit would be possible without Sister Rosetta Tharpe. None of it. Never would have happened.
[00:08:30] Sylvia: Say her name.
[00:08:31] Scottie: I really admired that he knew what he was doing. He knows exactly what he was doing. He was very aware that what he was doing was going to change music for ever. And it did. And then we lost another soulful legend, which was Betty Wright. She was a -- first a Miami staple. When it came to the vocals, people knew who Betty Wright was. She's responsible, of course, for "Clean Up Woman". Everybody knows that song. And she's been also sampled by a few people like I know Beyoncé sampled her, Mary J. Blige sampled her. So, yeah, you may not have heard of Betty Wright, but you've heard her through other's music. She's an incredible vocalist. And, you know, Jessie Wu had tweeted, she said, if you're a singer from Miami, Betty Wright was your auntie, your spiritual mother and vocal coach. Said, I made many friends at auntie Betty's house. This hits home. So, yeah, obviously, she took in a lot of people and was a vocal coach for a lot of aspiring singers.
[00:09:42] Sylvia: No. Yeah, I think for me with Betty Wright, I first found out about it -- or realized about it because I saw Kelly Roland posts a picture with her and Beyoncé with Betty, signifying about her passing. And I looked her up on Instagram and, you know, shout out to her because right there in the bio, it's like "Clean Up Woman". All caps. Just in case you were concerned and, you know, talking about her influence on the -- in Miami music scene. And I have to admit that I'm definitely somebody who beyond "Clean Up Woman" didn't know much about her as an artist. And I love moment -- social media in moments like this where people like Jessie can share those stories to let me know and inform me about things that I didn't necessarily know about the person. I love social media for being able to help us memorialize them in this way, especially especially right now. I think every death hits harder because we know we can't give a Little Richard the Aretha level -- Aretha Franklin level funeral. I'm sure he had detailed out in his will for himself. You know what I mean? Or like even just thinking about how with Andre Harrell and Betty Wright how the people who want to gather in a large way to send them off home have to figure out how to navigate that during COVID is another layer to this. So the fact that people can come together and memorialize them online is somewhat comforting to see, especially when it's done correct. So we wanted to just take our time to be able to do that on the platform we had and to acknowledge these lives and appreciate what they gave to us as the culture. And I think, you know, like Andre Harrell was always about pushing the culture forward and landing your mark. And I think, you know, that's something we strive to do every day and especially with his podcast. So rest in peace to all of them.
[00:11:27] [Music In]
[00:11:31] Scottie: And as always, black women were right on time with uplifting our spirits. My chakras had to get in order, child, because Jill Scott and Erykah Badu we're going live. But I didn't want to call it Verzuz because it wasn't a Verzuz. Nobody was keeping score.
[00:11:49] Sylvia: It was a celebration. We tried but boy.
[00:11:51] Scottie: [crosstalk] It was Jill Scott plus Erykah Badu. Because no one --
[00:11:54] Sylvia: [crosstalk] [laughs] In addition to.
[00:11:56] Scottie: Right. Didn't no one want to score. I tried to score in the beginning. I couldn't do it. I couldn't -even though I mean, Jill Scott did put the best of "You Got Me.”
[00:12:04] Sylvia: [crosstalk] All right. We're not gonna -- Here she go. Here she go.
[00:12:07] Scottie: [crosstalk] I'm just saying, Jill Scott did put the best one out.
[00:12:09] Sylvia: [crosstalk] I mean, there were moments where Badu hit it too --.
[00:12:10] Scottie: [crosstalk] Yea, yeah but --.
[00:12:10] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Like when you like when she -- when Badu played “Didn't Cha Know?” Ain't nothing was topping that. We knew and we knew, when she played "Green Eyes," they was like -- that was it. Ain't nobody going do -- like next time --
[00:12:19] Scottie: [crosstalk] I love Erykah.
[00:12:21] Sylvia: [crosstalk] A bomb. Like next --
[00:12:21] Scottie: I love Er -- I love both of them, too. [laughter] Like it was very clear from this battle that I couldn't pick. I could not pick.
[00:12:28] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Oh yeah, it was impossible.
[00:12:28] Scottie: Both of those women right there were very instrumental in actually like, my womanhood. Like, like actually becoming a woman involved Mama's Gun involved. It involved, Who Is Jill Scott? So I -- I could not pick. There was -- I enjoyed it so much. I laughed. I cried. I teared up.
[00:12:49] Sylvia: I think that they really just because, like what you said, their music has been the comfort for us during dark times, especially when it comes to relationships. When I tell you, I'm going through a breakup, it's Badu and Jill. They're there on the thing. And when I'm falling in love. So like I think that they were just the perfect, like, vibe, you know what I mean, for us that evening. And I think -- I love seeing how much we all enjoyed them together. It was the fellowship of it all, right. Like the fell -- like being able to -- us all be like, oh my God, for you too? Like, yes. Like this song does that for me too. And like, even just how they uplifted each other throughout that thing, like they kept lifting each other and like talking about how much they loved each other's work. And like Jill, would be like, man. This is a song, I wish I wrote that one. Or Erykah was like, a song was like, teach me. When I heard this like, you got it. You win. You know what I mean, like the sisterhood of it all was just so beautiful to see.
[00:15:06] Sylvia: Can we talk about how. I just spent half of that time basking in there how beautiful these women are. I mean, can we just talk about how, like Jill, the seduction that just drips off of every syllable. [laughs]
[00:15:21] Scottie: The art. It's an art, it's a skill. Like the way -- literally she don't have to say nothing. She -- the way she was just looking at the IG live. I'm like, why she looking at me like that? Like what she --
[00:15:32] Sylvia: [crosstalk] [inaudible] Do you feel that? [inaudible] [laugh]s
[00:15:35] Scottie: [crosstalk] I mean what you try to do? And I wouldn't be against it because what? Like Jill Scott is bad, bad. Like I -- I don't know. I don't know how you, you possess such just umph.
[00:15:47] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Muah. Uh.
[00:15:47] Scottie: [crosstalk] Like it's just -- mmm -- it's just me. Yeah.
[00:15:53] Sylvia: [laughs] And I was the like for me, Jill, especially as, you know, somebody who's a plus-size woman. Like for me, jill was one of the first people who showed me that like it's really more about the competence and how you carry yourself sometimes with people seeing you as sexy and beautiful. And like, I think Jill has really mastered that in a beautiful way because I always love to see how people -- how everybody responds to Jill Scott universally. It's a rare thing to see that with a black woman that looks like Jill and I'm here for it. I also need to know, I need to know this from you, Scottie, because no we -- you be about the music. What's a favorite song of yours that was played during the battle, personally? Like if you had to pick your favorite moment or favorite song --.
[00:16:33] Scottie: [crosstalk] “Bag Lady.”
[00:16:33] Sylvia: Or like a simple and just moment -- “Bag Lady.” Can you talk about what you love “Bag Lady?”
[00:16:36] Scottie: “Bag Lady”, because I think that was the time -- a lot of these songs are specific moments in my life. So when “Bag Lady” was played, I started to reminisce about when I first actually heard the song. I heard the song before, as a young kid, of course. Singing along didn't really think much of it. It was until I was an adult when I started to actually say, Damn bitch, you got mad bags! Like you got so much on your back and you're not helping anyone, especially yourself. All you must hold on to is you --.
[00:17:13] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Is you!
[00:17:13] Scottie: [crosstalk] Is you!
[00:17:12] Sylvia: Yes it's true!
[00:17:13] Scottie: Bitch, you could have sat down and just text, take care of these fucking bags. [laughter] And you wouldn't be as hurt as you are a now. And so it was that and “Crown Royal,” let me just tell you something.
[00:17:25] Sylvia: Woo! For obvious reasons. [laughs]
[00:17:28] Scottie: Whoo! What? Jill Scott --.
[00:17:31] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Sex baby.
[00:17:31] Scottie: [crosstalk] “Crown Royal.”
[00:17:32] Sylvia: Lord Jesus.
[00:17:33] Scottie: I'll throw, I'll throw the vagina as far as he could catch it with that one. [laughs] I ain't never, child. And she -- the thing is, she's not saying anything too--.
[00:17:44] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Nothing much.
[00:17:45] Scottie: Crazy. Right. It's just --.
[00:17:47] Sylvia: But she is still feeling it.
[00:17:49] Scottie: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Sylvia: She kept repeating it. And it's so --
[00:17:52] Scottie: Right. Right. So I liked those two songs.
[00:17:54] Sylvia: [crosstalk] I even feel -- I feel inappropriate even thinking about it. But yes. Those were the highlights for me.
[00:17:57] Scottie: [crosstalk] So what did -- So what are yours?
[00:18:00] Sylvia: I think for me, if I had to pick two -- like one from each side, Didn't You Know by Erykah Badu is maybe my favorite Eryrka Badu song.
[00:18:09] Scottie: [crosstalk] Shout out do J Dilla.
[00:18:09] Sylvia: [crosstalk] I just love the tone in it. I -- shout out to J Dilla, rest in peace. Like I love that song. And also, it's one of my best memories in life, honestly, is when Erkah Badu came to BuzzFeed, I think it was 2015, 2016 with Robert Glasper. She had the nerve to bring Robert Glasper with her.
[00:18:33] Sylvia: And I -- the second I saw him, I almost passed out. To play the piano while she performed for just like maybe 20 of us. And then when she came out her mouth to sing, “Didn't Cha Know?” When they picked “Didn't Cha Know?”
[00:18:48] Scottie: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Sylvia: I levitated. I think I died and came back to life twice. Like it was honestly one of the greatest moments of my life and my time at BuzzFeed. And like it -- so any time I hear that song, it just enriched by that experience. I feel, I feel like my life -- the trajectory of my career only went up from that moment if I have to trace it back, you know what I mean.
[00:19:10] Scottie: Yeah.
[00:19:10] Sylvia: Like I think Erykah and Robert Glasper together blessed me. So that's definitely from Erykah. And then obvious -- I was, also side note ready for her to play all 10 minutes of "Green Eyes.” I know every word, memorized.
[00:19:22] Scottie: I was pissed.
[00:19:23] Sylvia: The whole hour and a half.
[00:19:23] Scottie: [crosstalk] I was pissed when she cut it off.
[00:19:24] Sylvia: [crosstalk] I was ready for it. She cut us off quick. [laughs].
[00:19:27] Scottie: Why would you do that?
[00:19:29] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Quick. I said well, wait. I was, I was ready for the next four hours of this song anyway. I undertand.
[00:19:33] Scottie: [crosstalk] Emotions.
[00:19:34] Sylvia: And from Jill's side, you know what I think the thing is to me about Jill and what I loved about this battle is like even preparing for it, it made me revisit songs that I maybe hadn't listened to and a little bit, but it made me remember how much it hit. And when I tell you, when “Slowly Surely” came on --.
[00:19:52] Scottie: [crosstalk] Slow --
[00:19:52] Sylvia: I broke into a praise break around my couch, because when she's -- like she said, Thought it was good. Thought it was real.
[00:20:00] Scottie: [crosstalk] No.
[00:20:00] Sylvia: It was. But it wasn't love. Do you -- do understand? Do you understand?
[00:20:09] Scottie: [crosstalk] Truth. A truth teller.
[00:20:11] Sylvia: [crosstalk] That “Slowly Surely” walking away from self-serving, undeserving --.
[00:20:16] Scottie: [crosstalk] Undeserving ass.
[00:20:16] Scottie: [crosstalk] And constantly hurting me, love?
[00:20:19] Sylvia: Nigga, I was -- I was distraught. I got the praise. I ain't even heart broken right now. But I remembered it and I felt it. I felt it so --
[00:20:28] Scottie: [crosstalk] Like a moment of silence for fuckin Jill Scott's pen game, period.
[00:20:32] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Her pen!
[00:20:33] Scottie: Her pen game--
[00:20:36] Sylvia: Do you understand?
[00:20:36] Scottie: Is -- she's a pen assassin.
[00:20:38] Sylvia: Sick.
[00:20:38] Scottie: I don't understand.
[00:20:38] Sylvia: Sick.
[00:20:41] Scottie: I don't get how, even the pen should be like, damn bitch. Like, why would you write that?
[00:20:47] Sylvia: [laughs] The ink is just blood. It's red.
[00:20:47] Scottie: [crosstalk] Me as a pen -- right. Right. Like why would you --.
[00:20:50] Sylvia: [laughs] Just blood.
[00:20:52] Scottie: How dare you? Like bitch? Oh, yeah. Wait. And then "Cleva." "Cleva," I hopped out my seat, almost broke my ankle when I heard [laughter] -- cus that's another song. Mama's Gun.
[00:21:05] Sylvia: Ooh. I mean, I'm -- classic.
[00:21:07] Scottie: [crosstalk] I'm not --.
[00:21:07] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Let's not even discuss it.
[00:21:08] Scottie: [crosstalk] I'm not even going -- I'm not even go into it. But "Cleva."
[00:21:11] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Those that understand, don't gotta be explained. [laughs].
[00:21:13] Scottie: Hello.
[00:21:15] Sylvia: They write about our experience in womanhood in a way that's so -- it's so clear that it's two black women behind it who are just wise and I've seeing it from the back end of it. And it's just, thank you for these lessons.
[00:21:27] [Music In]
[00:21:31] Sylvia: OK. So this week, Netflix released Becoming, a documentary that follows my always First Lady Michelle Obama and her book tour for her bestselling memoir Becoming. And we had the luxury, the honor, the privilege of speaking with Nadia Hallgren, the director of the film. We are so excited to have you here to talk about your documentary, Becoming, on Netflix, featuring our first -- forever First Lady, Michelle Obama. And we want to start by talking to you about your own personal becoming.
[00:22:05] Nadia Hallgren: Yes.
[00:22:06] Sylvia: I think a lot of times when young girls ask a lot of us like, how did you get started and what did you do? A lot of it sometimes comes to like, who gave you your first break? Or like, who got you in the door? You know, and I know that there's probably a lot of young girls listening who, I know my own sister is graduating film and photo school and wants to be a cinematographer. And we'll probably kill me if I didn't ask you, like, what was their first big break for you? Even if it was just like this was the opportunity that helped me lead to the path of like all these other doors opening.
[00:22:34] Nadia: My story is that I -- I started actually taking photography classes in a local community arts center in Hunts Point in the South Bronx, International Center Photography has this community program where they teach kids how to take pictures. And so I started doing that. And, you know, sort of from -- being in the world of trying to understand documentary and also understanding that this was an opportunity for me to talk about -- or express myself, I should say -- in a way where I was trying to sort of make sense of the world around me. You know, like living in a poor community that was really deprived. Not really understanding why our lives were different from other peoples. And you know, why we had garbage trucks everywhere all the time, and like our neighborhoods were messed up. You know, there's just a lack of resources. I just didn't understand anything. I was still a child. And so through documentary and that form of storytelling for me was a way of understanding the world. And I never felt like I was articulate enough to express my thoughts. So being able to take pictures and express myself was something that I really connected with. And so through that program, I started meeting people and then I got my hands on a camcorder, started making short films. And I showed a short film that I made in the most local community arts arena, this place called the South Bronx Film Festival. They must have had it on for like two years. It doesn't even exist anymore. But there the folks that put that on had a friend who was a documentary film producer. And she showed up and she came to help moderate, you know, this very local, you know, homegrown film festival. And afterwards she came up to me, I showed one of my films. Afterwards, she came up to me. She was like, you know, I really loved your film. I loved what you were trying to do. It was not a good film, you know, it was not like a great movie. It was very much an effort, an effort on my part. I didn't know anything about filmmaking yet. And, you know, I was like, yeah thanks. I was like really down on myself. I wasn't taking the compliment. You know, and then she walked away and another woman came. She's like do know who that is? And I was like, no, I don't know who that is. And she's like, that's Michael Moore's producer. You better talk to her. And I was like, oh that's? I know when Michael Moore is. And I know that, you know, he's a big filmmaker. So I went back up to her. We chatted and she said, you know, if there's ever a chance for get -- for me to give you an opportunity, I will. Give me your phone number. So we sort of stayed in touch. And then that's when I got a call from her eventually, where she said, I can give you a job -- you know, I'm working on this new film with Michael Moore. It's going to be called Fahrenheit 9/11. I can give you a job as a production assistant, which means you'll be driving people around, you be getting coffee, you'll be carrying bags. But if there's ever an opportunity for you to shoot -- she knew I wanted to be a cinematographer, I will make sure you get that opportunity. And so, I was like, oh my goodness. This is amazing. I would love to do that. So I get the job, I show up to work. I was the worst production assistant. [laughter] I didn't know anything about filmmaking. I didn't know how to make copies. I -- I was just, you know, I was, I was a bouncer in nightclubs. Like that's what I did when I was running --
[00:25:50] Scottie: Word!
[00:25:52] Nadia: Right?
[00:25:52] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Plot twist! [laughs].
[00:25:52] Nadia: And so I came from a completely different world. And so I didn't know how to be in like an office of filmmakers, where everyone was like Ivy League and, you know, all the stuff. And so she was like, OK. Clearly, you need some guidance. And, you know, she was very firmly but kindly taught me the ropes. And I picked up fast. And I just focused in on what I was trying to do. So it was a long road from there to where I am now. But there was, for me, there was no -- there was no option. You know, it was like I had nothing else. And so I had to succeed or like die trying. You know.
[00:26:27] Sylvia: Yeah.
[00:26:27] Nadia: Like know that's all that there was. And so, so for me, that's -- that's sort of like that's - that was the foot in the door that ultimately got me to talking to you guys right now. Which I just got to say, I loved hearing your, your podcast. I think the idea of making things with friends is like the dream. And that you guys are, you know, friends and have been committed to doing this thing even before you were noticed. And then you get like this amazing opportunity to work together. That's the dream. And I'm so happy for both of you. And, you know, was just is really exciting to get to talk to you.
[00:27:05] Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh. I appreciate that. Thank you Nadia!
[00:27:05] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Oh girl. No, please. We have a whole interview to get through, girl. Don't have us crying. [laughs]
[00:27:10] Scottie: [crosstalk] I know, please save it. Save it for the end because you do not understand how much I will cry and how fast I will cry.
[00:27:17] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yeah.
[00:27:19] Scottie: [crosstalk] Immediately.
[00:27:19] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Scottie, take it. Take it Scottie, I'm emotional.
[00:27:19] Scottie: [crosstalk] OK. Talk to us about the moment leading up to this 30 minute chat with Michelle Obama.
[00:27:25] Sylvia: And just to -- before you say that, to set the stakes so the people know, this is the meeting where you were told if you and Michelle connect, the job is yours, right?
[00:27:34] Nadia: [crosstalk] Yes.
[00:27:34] Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh shit.
[00:27:35] Sylvia: [crosstalk] This is the meeting. So like, no pressure. [laughs]
[00:27:38] Scottie: Pressure. That's pressure. But also the beginning of Becoming you know, you capture her finding her song, right, the song that she usually needs to go through the rest of her day. If you were to pick a song before this meeting with Michelle Obama, the 30 minute meeting, what would you play?
[00:27:58] Nadia: It would be a Drake song. [laughs]
[00:28:00] Scottie: Oh, alright.
[00:28:07] Sylvia: Yeah! [laughs]
[00:28:07] Scottie: OK.
[00:28:07] Nadia: OK. I would have two songs going. I'd probably have “Money In the Grave” because that's just like, you know, this very vibey. And forgive me for this, but Watch the Throne, “H.A.M.”
[00:28:20] Scottie: Oh, yeah. Hard as a motherfucker.
[00:28:22] Nadia: Yes.
[00:28:23] Scottie: Let these niggas know who you actually are! Hello!
[00:28:27] Nadia: [laughs] I mean, you got to walk in there with some confidence, right? You gotta be like you. [laughs]
[00:28:30] Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh my good --
[00:28:34] Sylvia: Let these people know. Let these people know who you are. [laughs]
[00:28:38] Scottie: Hello? Damn. So tell us how you were feeling before walking through that door. Those 30 minutes.
[00:28:46] Nadia: So I'm going to tell you from the -- how the inception of this, because it's also one of those stories that are kind of unbelievable. So sitting at home at my kitchen table, like I am right now. And I get a call from Priya Swaminathan, who is the -- one of the head of Higher Ground, the Obama's production company. So she's like, listen, Michelle Obama is getting ready to go on this book tour. And we are floating the idea of documenting it. We don't know if it's gonna be a film. It could be footage that lives in Mrs. Obama's archive. But, you know, we're checking to see if you're interested. I was like, of course I'm interested. You know, what -- what do I have to do? And she's like, okay, you know, we'll get back. So there was like a series of all these phone calls. But I was like, I'm not going to get that job. Like, that's a job that's gonna go to someone else. Right. That's gonna go to someone who went to Yale. It's gonna go to someone who has an Oscar. It's gonna go to somebody else. But I appreciate you even considering me, even thinking about me. I'm honored. Thank you for the phone call.
[00:29:47] Sylvia: Excited to be nominated. Yes. [laughs]
[00:29:50] Nadia: [laughs] So -- exactly. It's an honor to be considered. [laughter] And so then one day -- then I'm like, you know, weeks pass and I get an email and it says, you have an appointment at the office of Michelle and Barack Obama. I was like, what? I was like, what do I do? I was like, oh my God, what do I do? Like, that's when it all hits you. Like, this is crazy. And I was like, I have to prepare. I must prepare. How do you prepare for this? So I went on YouTube. I re -- watched every speech that I could find that Mrs. Obama made. I -- every video, every magazine article she was featured in. I went back and read both the President's books. I had three weeks to prepare for this meeting and get into this headspace. Hear her voice on a podcast. Anything that I could do. What does Mrs. Obama care about? What are her goals? Like all these things. And even though it'd only been two years since they weren't in the White House, it felt like so long ago. And the nostalgia of getting back in this headspace was also an incredibly emotional experience for me. So the day comes. I live in New York. I take the train to D.C., get to the office and they're like. Your time is now. You have 30 minutes with Mrs. Obama. If you connect with her -- you know, if you guys connect, you have the job. If not, you got 30 minutes with Mrs. Obama.
[00:31:10] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right. [laughs].
[00:31:10] Nadia: So you're still a lucky contestant, you know. [laughs] And I was like, yep, that's it. So I just went in there and I walk in the door and it's like this soft, dreamy lighting in her office. And there's this beautiful artwork on the wall. And she's sitting in the far corner. She stands up and she's so tall and beautiful. And she walks towards me. I walk towards her. I extend my hand. And in my nervousness, I give her the most awkward handshake ever. And so our fingers are like all tied -- intertwined. And I was like, oh my God. You know the -- that, that handshake that's supposed to, you know, make you --.
[00:31:45] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right.
[00:31:47] Nadia: Like seal the deal.
[00:31:48] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right.
[00:31:48] Nadia: It was it was the worst handshake. And so she just started laughing and she was like, I'm a hugger. And I -- me, too. And so she gives me the biggest hug. She just knew I was nervous and she totally calmed me down. We sit down. And we just start talking about our neighborhoods, where we're from. She's from the South Side. I'm from the Bronx. We like all have all this pride from our communities. We talked about our moms and how much they influenced us. And, you know, and then she was just like what ideas do you have for a film? I told her. And she was like, let's do this. And I got the job on the spot. It was crazy. Did not expect that.
[00:32:23] Sylvia: Wow.
[00:32:24] Scottie: So with directing, you're given the green light to do it. The pressure, right, that you're going through. What were the first things you did in preparing to direct this? This is something that will stand the test of time. This is a timeless piece. And this is a timeless woman. So you know what went into preparing for that?
[00:32:46] Nadia: So, you know, once I got the job, that was the first hurdle. And then it -- it's the facing the reality that I have to execute this thing. And Mrs. Obama means so much to so many people and everyone sort of wants something different. And that understanding was very top of mind to me. And her story has such a level of nuance and complexity that a lot of what I was thinking was how do I pack this all into a 90 minute documentary? And I knew that that was going to be an incredible challenge and that I had to get it right. It's unacceptable to not get this right.
[00:33:29] Scottie: Right. You were capturing that. Michelle Obama, the First Lady, you were capturing the human.
[00:33:35] Nadia: Yeah.
[00:33:35] Scottie: And that's a whole lot to put it -- like you said in one documentary. You know what I'm saying. So, yeah. A lot of that, I was watching -- when I was watching, I just loved how real and authentic it was to Michelle Obama and her, her being a human. And coming from where she came from and also embracing that, too. I think a lot of the times that gets lost with her story, is where she came from. Before this, before First Lady. People just see First Lady and then move forward from there. No, I think it's very important that we step back and understand what it took to get to where she is now.
[00:34:13] Nadia: Yes. That didn't happen overnight. And she did not come out of nowhere.
[00:34:16] Scottie: [crosstalk] She was prepared. She was prepared.
[00:34:17] Nadia: I mean, the lo -- yes. And the love an investment that was put into her since childhood by her mother and her father and her whole community around her, it's like -- it all became so clear how--
[00:34:32] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right.
[00:34:32] Nadia: She is just such an extraordinary person. And to me, it was so important to show that. Like you said, it's not -- like she said, it's not just those eight years in the White House. So much of who she has happened before that.
[00:34:44] Scottie: Right.
[00:34:44] Nadia: And so there were many times when I questioned myself, am I capable of doing this? You know, am I like, am I good enough and smart enough? And I got to say that, you know, hearing Mrs. Obama every night, going out and telling her story was what I needed to be like, if Mrs. Obama can do what she has done, if she can withstand all the doubters and the haters and the people that told her she wasn't good enough, I can do it, too. And that -- I really drew a tremendous amount of strength from hearing her and her words, you know, consistently and constantly through the process of making this film.
[00:35:26] Scottie: Yeah. I mean, when she said we can't afford to wait for the world to be equal to start feeling seen, time will not allow it.
[00:35:33] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Woo!
[00:35:33] Nadia: [crosstalk] Oh you -- I got chills, from you just staying htat.
[00:35:34] Scottie: [crosstalk] Tools within yourself -- I know. Tools within yourself. You have to find those tools for yourself. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, for you Nadia, what are those tools that you use to make sure that you are seen? Cause that line alone, I'm almost -- I'm -- now, I'm a crybaby, so when I say cry, use this very loosely, I cry every time. [laughter] But when that young girl was asking, how do, how do you keep from feeling invisible? And Michelle had that answer.
[00:36:08] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Mmm, yeah. That was it.
[00:36:08] Scottie: [crosstalk] I was like, wow, you know. What are the tools? What are tools that you use? And I'm sure that's one of the tools that you've used to make yourself.
[00:36:14] Nadia: It's one of the tools.
[00:36:15] Scottie: Yeah.
[00:36:15] Nadia: I think, you know what I always try to share with other folks like me who have big dreams and aspirations is surround yourself with people who love you and want to see you succeed. Encouragement is the most valuable thing that someone can give you. And being around people who don't see you, who make you feel invisible, who don't value you, it chips away at --.
[00:36:51] Scottie: [crosstalk] Spirit. Yeah.
[00:36:51] Nadia: [crosstalk] Your soul and your spirit. And you know what? You know, those people are invisible -- You make them invisible.
[00:36:59] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right. Right. Right.
[00:37:01] Nadia: [crosstalk] That's what you do. You make them invisible. They don't exist in your world anymore to the level that you can control it. You know, and really thinking deeply about, is this a healthy job for me? Is this a healthy relationship for me? Is this a healthy friendship? You know, whatever it is. Because if folks aren't trying to uplift you, you know, it's something to really consider. And I think for me, that's been key to be able to step into these shoes and actually, you know, make it happen.
[00:37:28] Scottie: Beautiful, Nadia.
[00:37:30] Sylvia: Amazing. And speaking of making invisible people feel visible, I think you did such an excellent job of capturing the way black girls and black women look at Michelle Obama.
[00:37:44] Scottie: [crosstalk] Tears Do you hear me? Tears, tears.
[00:37:45] Sylvia: You know what I mean, like I mean, look! I mean, because as a black woman, it's something that obviously we look for and we see because that's kind of like we feel it, you know what I mean. But you really captured it in a visual way. And I want to talk -- like, how purposeful was that? How did you go about making sure that those girls were seen? Because it's honestly to me, it just shows the importance of her as a figure. Just the effect and the impact and just the dreams you can literally see the dreams bursting out of the girls' heads, when they're looking at Michelle Obama.
[00:38:17] Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh my gosh. Yes.
[00:38:17] Sylvia: [crosstalk] It's beautiful.
[00:38:18] Nadia: You know, I didn't know what to expect when I went out with Mrs. Obama, but I was open and I was -- all I thought was, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to document what's happening. But very quickly, from the first time that she met with, you know, young women or, you know, she's on his book lines with folks. It's magical the way that people respond to her. And it's also because of the way that she engages with people. She has this eye contact.
[00:38:50] Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes.
[00:38:51] Nadia: [crosstalk] That --
[00:38:52] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Woo!
[00:38:52] Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes. Yep.
[00:38:53] Nadia: It like pierces your soul. OK? And I felt it. I saw her do it to other people. And I -- it was really important to me that I figure out how to bring back quality of.interaction to an audience. It's like I need people to understand this thing that I'm feeling, this thing that I'm seeing. How do I do that? And so a lot of it was, you know again, my cinematography background played acting like the most important role for me here because I was able to be close to her, to capture things from her perspective, from her point of view as well as, you know, I am those girls. So it's -- there's just these things that you pick up on that it's just like I see that. I know that feeling. I know -- I'm feeling it, too. We're all in this. It was just --
[00:39:47] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yeah.
[00:39:47] Nadia: It was really just such like an organic experience to have and all these sort of small details that are -- were the things that really mattered to me.
[00:39:58] Scottie: Yes. I mean, speaking of small detail, Nadia, when you, girl. When [laughter] -- when you had the beautiful young girl, she's on the bus going to school.
[00:40:11] Nadia: Shayla.
[00:40:11] Scottie: And it transitions -- right -- transitions to Michelle Obama in the car by the window. Did I cry? Absolutely. I just --.
[00:40:21] Sylvia: It ruined her, it ruined me, it ruined me. [laughs]
[00:40:22] Scottie: [crosstalk] Small things like that because it's not that far. They're not that far apart. She was once that young girl, you know what I'm saying. And I am that young girl. We are all of that young girl. So I thought that moment --.
[00:40:34] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Becoming.
[00:40:34] Scottie: [crosstalk] Becoming, for real. Hello.
[00:40:34] Sylvia: [crosstalk] Becoming.
[00:40:35] Nadia: That, that was the goal. You know, the -- I think for me, the most exciting thing about this film is the way that people are connecting with it, seeing themselves. Like every, you know, something like that, like one shot, just one image --.
[00:40:50] Sylvia: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Nadia: Touched you, you know.
[00:40:52] Sylvia: Another thing that really stuck out to me is that, you know, often we don't get to be the authors of each other's stories or the tellers of each other's stories. We often talk about like seeing women with cover stories. And it's like, you know, as a writer, as a journalist, I'm always like, well, who wrote that feature on, you know, Beyoncé or Rhianna? And it's like, I can tell the difference between when it's a white woman and a black woman.
[00:41:15] Scottie: That's for real.
[00:41:16] Sylvia: And I think it was really amazing that I but we -- a black women got to be the one to visually tell the story of our first black fady. I mean, our [laughs] -- our first black First Lady, forever First Lady. So did that sink into you at point? And like how did that impact -- what kind of impact do you think it has on industries when we get to be the ones to tell each others' stories?
[00:41:39] Nadia: So historically, people like us have been left out of a lot of the conversations that are happening, especially in the media. You know, documentary filmmaking is absolutely one of those fields where, you know, predominantly privileged, predominantly white, predominantly male for a very long time. You know, within the more recent years, it has opened up a lot to women filmmakers of all kind. But still, for many reasons that are systemic, that start from way, way, way before people even want to be filmmakers. You know, folks -- you know, our folks haven't had access to those opportunities. I think what it does when a successful film happens that was directed by a person of color, it makes people think why -- why don't we have more people doing this? You know, more more people that represent diverse backgrounds doing this. And, you know, I think it forces them to put up a mirror to themselves and really ask that question. And, you know, that's also another reason why it was so -- you know, I put a tremendous amount of pressure on myself to make the best film that I can make because I know I represent -- it's not just me I'm representing here. I'm representing all of us.
[00:43:09] Scottie: Yes. Yes.
[00:43:09] Nadia: And, you know, I really wanted to come correct and make sure that I represented well and delivered, so that hopefully this can open more opportunities for other people like me.
[00:43:23] Sylvia: I want to also talk a bit about how you took care of yourself during filming this because you mentioned knowing how, you know, it's a privilege and a burden when you're a black woman creating something. Cause you know how many people you're either going to open or close the door for. And and then to add the pressure of Michelle Obama, who's like the most famous black woman in the world. And so that's magnified, multiplying that pressure by a million. How did you take care of you, Nadia? Behind the scenes while working on this stuff?
[00:43:55] Nadia: Thanks for asking that question, because I've got to say it, it's some stuff that like saved me. The ways that I maintained my mental health during this time [laughs] -- and also the exhaustion and the sheer like the brain, the brain expansion that happens when you're trying to solve, you know, just an edit is very challenging, as you can see. Like we're trying to pack all these things in, in 90 minutes. All these storylines, trying to see -- keep it on track, keep it interesting. Do all this stuff. And, so I really relied on meditation, which has become a really important part of my life, even if it's just a few minutes out of the day. I think it's really important not only for this moment, but to -- in order to focus on the work that I do as a cinematographer all the time and really stay present. You know, part of filmmaking, the style of filmmaking that I really lean into is the act of being present. And being able to lock into things like someone's reaction and body language and stuff like that. And so for me, meditation has really been helpful with that exercise. I do a lot of yoga. Not only for the mental but for the physical, because I also do all my own cinematography and it's all handheld. So I am carrying very heavy equipment. For 12, 14 hours a day, daily. And you know, that takes a toll on your body after a while. It's not comfortable at all. So being able to have the stamina to do that and also not get injured has been really important for me. So I would say that meditation, yoga, diet, whenever possible, because, you know, when you're on the road, it's really hard. But have -- picking the healthiest food options so that I feel -- my mind is clear, I feel lite. And having some -- a little bit of quiet and peace of mind, which is hard to get in the city, was really helpful for me. So I'd say all those things.
[00:45:58] Sylvia: I think we should end upon the impact,right. And just kind of what do you want the audience to walk away with after watching the documentary?
[00:46:06] Nadia: There's so many things that I had hoped the audience would take away from this film. You know, a deeper understanding of Mrs. Obama was one for sure. The power of storytelling, whether it's telling our story, valuing our own stories or sharing our stories, listening to one another. All of that, to me is really important and something that I wanted to explore in the making of this film. You know, in this moment, which we had no idea we would be, when we made this movie, the idea of community and people -- folks coming together. I know when I see the film now, I get really moved by just seeing people hugging and touching each other. And, you know, having this experience together. It' just -- it's something that where -- it feels like we're adapting to this moment, at least me, like I'm adapting to this moment so much. And recognizing that like community is everything. And it's, it's so important. But then the film kind of took on a life of its own, which I didn't know what to expect really seeing this movie. And the messages that I'm getting from people are extraordinary all over the world, whether it's, you know, girls in India saying, I want to be a filmmaker. Seeing you and seeing, you know, a brown girl or someone that looks like me gives me hope that I can do it. Or a white dude that's just like, oh my God. He -- he wrote me. He said, when I heard that young woman say she felt invisible, he was like, it's like, I woke up. Like, I just got it. Like I understood something I never understood before in my life. So it's just so interesting to me that people are taking from the film so many things beyond what I had even hoped for. And I think that that's the cool thing about when you make something and you put it out in the world and it just -- it just becomes something, you know, completely different. And so I think that that's something else.
[00:48:10] Scottie: Yeah. Toni Morrison said the function of freedom is freeing someone else. And I think that's exactly what this documentary did. Whether it's be a small freedom or a huge freedom, it's freedom. It's freeing somebody. It's breaking a chain. And I think that's exactly what we needed. It's essential. It's necessary. And yeah, I appreciate and I thank you from the bottom of our hearts for doing this for us.
[00:48:39] Sylvia: Amen.
[00:48:40] Nadia: Thank you. I mean, I can't tell you how much that means to me. It was just so important for me to try and tell a story that may people feel the way you just described. And so to say that that is happening, I'm honestly -- just so overwhelmed. Like that, that's the goal more than any of the other stuff. You know, numbers. How many people watch. Anything like that. It's just like --.
[00:49:04] Scottie: The breakthrough.
[00:49:05] Nadia: And it's only because like Mrs. Obama, you know, Mrs. Obama has the ability to do that when she goes out and, and talks and tells her story or just engages with people. So for me, it was just like, how do I just capture this thing that she does naturally, but do it in a way that it can feel equal to what it's like in, you know, having a real experience and in person? Yes.
[00:49:29] Scottie: That' beautiful.
[00:49:30] Sylvia: That's -- I mean, there's no better way to end any conversation than a Toni Morrison quote. So I think that's fo-- That's it, folks.
[00:49:37] Nadia: Well, thank you. And congrats to you guys on your new show. I'm so excited to see what you do next. I'll be watching. I'll be tuning in. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me.
[00:49:45] Scottie: Thank you, Nadia. Appreciate you!
[00:49:46] [Music In] [Music Out]
[00:49:54] Sylvia: And while we have moments of hope, like we got from watching this documentary and having this conversation with Nadia about what important moment and figure Michelle Obama is and how inspiring it is to us, we -- the reality of being black in America is that there is still such a long way to go, always. And with every step forward, it often feels like we take a few steps back. And I think the way that that played out this week for a lot of us was going from watching the documentary, you like Becoming and remembering that time with the Obamas in the White House to dealing with the realities of black lives still not mattering. And the murder of a Ahmaud Arbery.
[00:50:35] Scottie: On February 23rd, Ahmaud Arbery was murdered by two white men after they hunted him down while he was on a run. When I learned of this information, my heart instantly broke. It broke because it took 11 weeks for an arrest. It broke because I think we needed to have a public outcry, there needed to be public embarrassment. A video of this young man being killed in order for there to be an arrest.
[00:51:14] Sylvia: It's really, I think something that was said initially that really stood out to me is that the two men, the father and son, the two white men to be clear, who killed Ahmaud did -- they weren't arrested because the police saw the video. They were arrested because we saw the video.
[00:51:31] Scottie: Yes.
[00:51:32] Sylvia: And, and we made noise about it. And it's exhausting as a black person and for black people to have to do this to just get even just a crumble of justice. And I wouldn't even really call this justice because it's just an arrest. It's just a crumble of something that we, we've learned that you -- just because two white men have killed somebody in the -- in broad daylight and there was a video to prove it, may get them arrested two months later. But it definitely won't get them put it -- you know, may not get them put in jail permanently.
[00:52:08] Scottie: Right.
[00:52:08] Sylvia: They still have to get convicted by a jury of their peers. And that's the key word their peers, not ours. And that -- we've been disappointed so many times that it's, it automatically makes it exhausting from step one. Because we've seen this play out, rinse, repeat, play out, rinse, repeat all over -- most black people, all of our lives. And it's really when you put it under -- add it to the pressure that already exists for us being under a global pandemic, which to me is the only new-ness of this, is that it just makes it even harder. Like I didn't even know racial issue -- issues could feel even more suffocating until like this happened. And it's like so now on top of everything else, we have to deal with the COVID and being hit more -- harder and more often because as black people, because of preexisting conditions and, you know, just the economy and how we don't have the same health care and jobs and all that other stuff. We now also have to deal with all of that and fight for justice for something that should automatically be -- we shouldn't have to talk about, like why we shouldn't have to do this.
[00:53:15] Scottie: So it's adding to the things that white people can do that black people can't. Right. When I think about this, I think about Kendrick Lamar's song called "Fear," who list a whole bunch of fears of reasons and ways that he could just get killed. Right. He is burdened with that his whole life. And you're just adding on. Right. So I can't wear a hoodie and I can't -- I can't go out for a run. I can't do these things. I can't do -- I can't exist. I can't be a person. I can't do -- regular natural things that natural regular people do simply because of the color of my skin. I'm very angry. So I've been trying to really go through and navigate my, my mental as much as I can, because at this point I'm feeling helpless because I'm watching a system that is doing what it's supposed to do.
[00:54:21] Sylvia: Protecting the people it's supposed to protect.
[00:54:23] Scottie: Absolutely.
[00:54:25] Sylvia: And that's not us. The fact that the father -- the man who killed him was a retired cop. I can only imagine what this man did while he was an actual cop that we will never know. And it's honestly it feels like sometimes like you're digging -- like we're digging with a spoon because like you said, Scottie, like we're not the oppressors here. We're not the problem. Racism is a white problem. And it's often put the burdens on the us to -- just because we don't want our loved ones to die, that we're the ones who have to, you know, lead the charge. But I am -- like I am tired of watching videos of black men being killed. I actually made a point like I can't watch anymore. I told myself a couple years ago that this, I can't keep doing that. As for self care, like I can't -- I am -- and it's, it's such a catch-22 with -- to be in a paradox where you either have to make something so horrific and tragic, go viral to get that person justice or tuck it away and know that nothing will ever happen. There is no proper way to do it. Like it's -- like I understand why these videos have to go viral. It's just the worst kind of cruel that we have to traumatize ourselves to get justice for ourselves.
[00:55:38] Scottie: Right. Like the fact that I think about during a modern lynching, the last moments of a black man or a woman's life is spent hoping that someone had recorded this. Hoping that their death would go viral so that their death could be seen as unjustified. Like it's wrong. You know what I'm saying. To help people see black life as innocent, the only thing going for us right now is a video.
[00:56:08] Sylvia: Yeah. And it speaks to the lack of empathy that exists for a non -- like non-black people, for black people. The fact that they have to be put in front of your face like that.
[00:56:17] Scottie: Yes.
[00:56:17] Sylvia: The fact that you just maybe reading that it happened isn't enough. Like the fact that the police report isn't enough. You don't have the same empathy for us and you don't see how the racism problem, how it exists within yourselves, within your friends, within your colleagues, within your family members. And then we leave it to us to have to carry that load. Anybody who wants to call himself a real ally, it's like Rihanna said at Black Girls Rock. Like pull up. This is the time where you're supposed to speak up. It's not on us. This is a time where you're supposed to call your racist family members and have real conversations with them about it. Because every time you choose to just avoid them or think like I can't talk to them or whatever, whatever else, excuse you tell yourself --
[00:56:59] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right -- Yes.
[00:56:59] Sylvia: To help you sleep at night because you just think there's nothing you can do about it, another black person is killed. Every -- every night you waste, another person has died, a minimum one. And it's really, I am sick of tired of allowing the white friends in my life to think that they can be a part of black lives and then not take care of us in the same way. Like it's not right. And I think a lot -- one of the things I saw on the timeline that specifically right now was a lot of people stepping up and saying, where are my white friends that-- how come they're not posting this? You claim to be my friend. You claim to care about me and my family. You, sure enough, love our culture and our music --.
[00:57:37] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right. Only when it's convenient --
[00:57:38] Sylvia: [crosstalk] And our fashion.
[00:57:40] Scottie: Only when it's convenient. This, this caused discomfort. And they don't want to deal with that. They don't also want to deal with being wrong. They don't want to deal with their loved ones being wrong. Yeah. And I'm not going to pat you on the fucking back for it. I don't care if you're doing it. I'm not --.
[00:57:57] Sylvia: [crosstalk] No.
[00:57:57] Scottie: [crosstalk] Right. I'm not patting you on the back.
[00:57:58] Sylvia: [crosstalk] It's the least you should do.
[00:57:59] Scottie: I'm not giving you a shout out. I'm not thanking you. Not doing that. You should be doing that long time ago. So, yeah, I hate that this has to keep happening, that this is happening. Any -- like I just I've never felt so helpless in my life, literally, after this.
[00:58:18] Sylvia: It's a thinking, feeling. And you posted something -- you posted that James Baldwin quote that I always go back to during moments like this on your Instagram after this happened, about how to be black and that we're in this country.
[00:58:30] Scottie: To be a Negro in this country. And to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time. And so I also posted a video of James Baldwin in an interview talking about, you know, change take time. Progress takes time. It takes time. How -- it took generations of time. We're, we're in this for over 200, 400 years. How much time do you need? Do you know what I'm saying. So I'm tired of the change talk too. I want to see it.
[00:59:07] Scottie: Yeah. It's, it's hard to not feel like it's a, it's a waste. And to not feel the responsibility to have to because we have -- like it's like, who's going to save us if we don't save ourselves? But then also knowing the harsh reality of us trying to save ourselves is never going to be enough. And that's that's, a hard -- it's a hard complex. But we wanted to make sure that at least Scottie, Sylvia, we did our part in speaking up about this because it's not right and people need to be put on notice continuously, it appears, because this has happened. I can imagine -- the amount of #names we've had at this point. It has happened over and over and over again. And we're tired. We are tired.
[00:59:52] Scottie: Yeah.
[00:59:52] Sylvia: So ideally, we wish we wouldn't have to end the show on such a sad note. But this is part of the reality of being black in America. Black in this world globally. High highs and low lows. And there's always something. There's always something we have to be fighting and dealing with. But it's important to use our voices because it's literally all we got.
[01:00:14] [Music In]
[01:00:15] Sylvia: Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode.
[01:00:18] Scottie: Our show is a production of Pineapple Street Studios in partnership with Netflix and Strong Black Lead. Shout out to our team. Our Executive Producers are Agerenesh Ashagre and Jasmyn Lawson.
[01:00:29] Sylvia: Our Lead Producer is Jess Jupiter and our music is by Amanda Jones. Special thanks to Max Linksy and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Make sure you share your thoughts with us on our episode using the #OkayNowListen. Follow Strong Black Lead on the socials @Strong Black Lead and follow us too. I'm @SylviaObell.
[01:00:48] Scottie: And I'm @ScottieBeam.
[01:00:50] Sylvia: Until next time, folks, stay blessed.
[01:00:53] [Music Out]