On this episode, we start by giving praise to the glory that was Gladys Knight and Patti LaBelle's Verzuz battle. Then, we chat about Girlfriends and Being Mary Jane; two shows that made us feel represented on screen and gave us friendships to aspire to. Finally, we give flowers to the creator behind those two shows, Mara Brock Akil, and talk about her everlasting impact in television and what her future plans at Netflix include.
Okay, Now Listen Season 1 Episode 11 with Mara Brock Akil
[Music In]
Scottie Beam: You're listening to Okay, Now Listen, a biweekly show where we chat about what's on our minds, what we're bingeing and what's blowing up our timelines. I'm Scottie Beam. I'm a media personality, content creator, music enthusiast and wing connoisseur.
Sylvia Obell: And I'm Sylvia Obell. I'm a culture writer, host, producer and lover of Beyoncé
Scottie: My Sylvia. Oh, Sylvia. First of all, you look beautiful today.
[Music Out]
Sylvia: Thank you, Scottie. [laughs]
Scottie: You look so pretty.
Sylvia: I've been going through --.
Scottie: How are you feeling this week?
Sylvia: Well, you know, I must have rehearsed my lines a thousand times.
Scottie: Thousand times.
Sylvia: But they -- [laughs] they never seen the come out right. But when -- you know what I mean? If only you knew. If only you knew how much I got my life from the Verzus battle between Gladys Knight and Patti LaBelle. Because that's how I'm doing. It really, it really just set the tone. It was the spiritual healing and cleansing. I needed to start a new week.
Scottie: Yes.
Sylvia: And I literally think my auntie powers are fully charged. We're at a all time high right now. I literally have zero fucks about me. I literally have cursed out a be -- at least three or four of my nephews and nieces in my mind. [laughs] Like -- I very -- I just feel, I just feel like, you know, our moon has risen. Like we are in auntie season. Like it's a zodiac sign. Like aunties in retrograde. Like, I don't know what it's called but that's where I'm at. [laughs]
Scottie: I -- It was the warmest hug for me because I think, you know, a lot of us are missing our grandparents too. A lot of us are missing our elders and our family, our ancestors. And it was so just spiritual.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: Like for me, because I love this type of music too, 70s and early 80s is my shit.
Sylvia: Yes.
Scottie: I live by it. I'm sticking to it. I will forever be embedded in the the 70s and 80s music culture period. Like I fucking love it. Especially disco. Don't ever come for disco's head. I will come for yours.
Sylvia: Yes. [laughs]
Scottie: Now I was in love with the sisterhood between Gladys and Patti LaBelle --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yes.
Scottie: Because it was genuine. You can tell that it was genuine and it was nurtured.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: It's something that they spent years doing. You know what -- spent years talking to each other and being, you know, kind to each other and loving on each other. And I love that about the Verzuz challenge, even though they don't even know -- I'm sure and I'm pretty sure they don't even know what the fuck was happening. [laughter] What was going on.
Scottie: Was it a comp -- like a competition? Absolutely not --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I feel like a celebration.
Scottie: [crosstalk] It was none of those things. Yeah, it was definitely a celebration. I love that they were singing from their chair. Your fave could fucking never ever in life, not a person right now. I don't care.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Out singing your fave --
Scottie: [crosstalk] Can sit in that chair--
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Out singing them. From the chair. Causally! Causally!
Scottie: [crosstalk] Sit in her chair! Legs crossed! Your diaphragm is folded. [laughter] You hear me? The diaphragm already knows what to do. And they were singing. Gladys came -- and, and also for those who ca -- try to play in Gladys Knight's face. Don't ever.
Sylvia: Don't do it.
Scottie: And because you don't know the music, you could have done your research, do you Googles and knew that this woman has been singing since Jesus was a boy. [laughter] There's no -- Like she does this for real. She does not play. Like so I --.
Sylvia: Jesus was a boy! [laughs]
Scottie: Jesus was a little boy. And she does not play. She does not joke when it comes to those vocal skills.
Sylvia: Gladys came and hollar. She was hitting the notes early. You know what I mean? I was like, OK. Gladys is sitting here casually-ass singing your fave from her chair at 77. Like, what is life? Get yourself -- get your health together. All of that. Pat -- Patti sang, "If Only You Knew" from her seat. She literally hit that [sings], Iiiiiif! From her seat, from her chair! Let --
Scottie: Yeah.
Sylvia: And I just, I just want us to talk, like I just -- this is why that music will always be revered, that time period will be revered for what it was, which was bitches who could sing and that you weren't getting by if you could not. I don't care how cute you were. I don't care how many Insta -- well --
Scottie: [crosstalk] Well, some of them, some of them was getting by, honey.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Well I mean like --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Diana was getting by.
Sylvia: Wow, we're not going to do this. No we're -- [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] Some of us -- we was getting -- we was getting -- But I love Diana Ross. I love! I'm a fan. But --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] No I know. I know, you're right. You're right. I just, you know, that's one of those Black things that we all say in front of company. [laughs].
Scottie: What company? This is the -- listen. If they're listening to us now, they are family. They know about.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] The one --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] We are on what episode? So by this time --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yeah, you're right. The white folks listening --.
Scottie: Oh, white folks can't talk about shit. First of all, if the whites are listening, [laughter], hi. You're just here listening in. I, I seriously, don't ever think about that. But --
Sylvia: I know. I know. I know. I'm just playing.
Scottie: I was just -- you know, I, I do believe that this was a time period where you had to give your all. No matter --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] There you go, that what --.
Scottie: Whatever you had, you gave your best.
Sylvia: Right.
Scottie: And you looked your best. You were always at your best. And so I think, you know, Gladys and Patti are like --.
Sylvia: Legends.
Scottie: They're fucking --.
Sylvia: Icons.
Scottie: Legends, the icons, the visionaries. They were -- the, the styles.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] The voice.
Scottie: Like I was some time just to look at Patti LaBelle's, you know, evolution. [laughter] The evolution of Patti.
Sylvia: The wigs! [laughs]
Scottie: And, the wigs. You know, the styles. I just I -- whew child. I really had a good time. I was dancing in front of my TV the whole time. When Dionne Warwick came out, let me tell you something.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Whoo! They pulled out Dionne!
Scottie: [crosstalk] New Jersey is own, first off.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] New Jersey's own! What?!
Scottie: Sis came out. She said she was 80. 80 years old?
Sylvia: She said she's 80, yeah.
Scottie: She's 80 years old. Harmonizing again with the best of them.
Sylvia: And they sang -- when they sang, "Superwoman?" Child. I thought I levitated.
Scottie: Oh Lord. Lord. They perform. They are entertainers.
Sylvia: They are entertainers and what I was --.
Scottie: That is what you come to --
Sylvia: And what I loved is that they, they gave me what I came for. Like, they knew what we wanted. They gave us the class. They done turned to [inaudible] bucket into a bouquet of flowers. They done have Shanda Lears in the back.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes they did.
Sylvia: You know, Patti brought the props because she knows she's the extra auntie. She knows she's the extra auntie.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Always.
Sylvia: So she had her Louis Vuitton suitcases that nobody asked her to bring as her side table. She had multiple pairs of shoes. Did you catch the shoe change? When she kicked off the heels --
Scottie: Well of course. Because -- when she's singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." It was expected that she was going to fly away. [laughter] That's first. You had to fly away and that you had you kicked off -- kick off your shoes.
Sylvia: Consider me Prince at the BET Award special with the shoe -- when they caught the shoe in the air and held it.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Held it in the air.
Sylvia: Cus that's how I felt by the end of that damn Verzuz, child. Because let me tell you something. I will tell you my two favorite moments when they went from "Neither One of Us" to "Somebody Loves You Baby," the back to back, I almost had a heart attack. I said, how you gonna hit us with a double header like that?
Scottie: I was singing like, [laughter] I was employed by Gladys Knight herself --.
Sylvia: To do back up.
Scottie: She was like, sis, can you just be Pip. Be one of the Pips.
Sylvia: One of the Pips! [laughs]
Scottie: And I said, I got you. Don't you worry. I was sweating, Sylvia. [laughter] I put the phone done -- If you notice, my timestamps are off because I had took a whole break to get up and sing the whole song because that is my song. Even my mom knew that it was my song. She wasn't home with me, but she had tweeted, she had -- no -- wrote a comment in IG Live that was like, I hear my daughter singing all the way from here cus that's how hard --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] "Neither One of Us".
Scottie: [crosstalk] I go for "Neither One of us.".
Sylvia: [crosstalk] A break up song.
Scottie: [crosstalk] It's a great, great break up song.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] A break up song child.
Scottie: And they don't even break up at the end. Like --.
Sylvia: That's why it's real. [laughs].
Scottie: It's like, farewell my love. But like --.
Sylvia: [sings] Neither one of us.
Scottie: [sings] of us. Neither one of us. I was going hard. Dancing.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] You were doing -- you were doing the echoes -- neither one of us for her.
Scottie: Yo. When she goes, [sings] farewell my love.
Sylvia: [sings] Love. Farwell
Scottie: And I was, [sings] Goodbye. Goodbye.
Sylvia: [laughs] And you got to the choreography with it.
Scottie: [laughs] I did the whole thing. That's my jam.
Sylvia: I just want to say thank you to the antique for giving us Auntiechella. And I just really feel like Verzuz, the bar has been ri -- it's been raised. It's been raised. It's been raised because if these two women in their 70s can get up there and sing live regularly, I don't want to see another R & B singer compete in this competition unless you gonna hit me with some my vocals as well. Because you have no excuse.
Scottie: Thank you. [inaudible]
Sylvia: You have no excuse. It's been-- and you also no longer have an excuse to think you're too good for Verzuz, which is really what this did. Because now the bar of who's a -- who's like, oh, this is below me. Or oh, they’re too big for this? If Patti and Gladys did it? The, the doors of the church are open. To like [laughs]
Scottie: I have to accept that there are people that cannot and will not ever measure up to the legendary -- the legends that are Patti and Gladys. Shit. First of all, Verzuz, now, I don't even want new people anymore. [laughter] I don't want nobody --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] You just want --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] After 1980.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Oh no!
Scottie: [crosstalk] I just need, I need everyone--.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] How about the 90s? Give us the 90.
Scottie: [crosstalk] I was just saying -- yeah.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Allow the 90s.
Scottie: Yeah I'll give you the 90s. [laughter] Ok. So the 90s. I want Janet Jackson. I want everyone there.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: I'm good after 99. I'm good after 99. But I have a sentimental tie to Gladys Knight's "Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me." It makes me think of my grandmother. It makes me think of my mother. Especially the lyrics, you know, because she says like, you know, if ever they were to write my story, you know, that you would be in it and you would be the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't know who she talking about. But for me, it would be my mother and my grandmother.
Sylvia: That's beautiful.
Scottie: So I think I -- I love that song. And my mom also loves that song. And I think that's something that we share together. We sing to each other. So I was crying. I was --I'm not even gonna lie to y'all, right now, here live on Okay, Now Listen. I was crying. I was trying not to look crazy because, you know, my boyfriend, like, the hell is wrong with you? [laughter] But I was -- I was tearing up because I was like, you know, this is something --
Sylvia: It was beautiful.
Scottie: We need to realize that we won't have anymore. And, you know, we'll have the music forever. Absolutely. But moments like this, we will not have any more. Like everybody's on borrowed time.
Sylvia: Yes.
Scottie: So why not make the most of it and do things like this, you know what I'm saying? For the world to see and for you to see.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: So, you know, when they hugged each other, when they, when they said -- signed off and said goodbye, I was a mess because, you know, I, I love those women.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: And the fact that these women wanted to do it --.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: Is something special and makes me feel worthy. And I love that. I love that. Especially from Patti LaBelle and Gladys Knight. There is no -- there -- literally what they can give me, I don't know. But they -- they filled my heart so full.
Sylvia: My cup runneth over.
Scottie: So, yes. That plus my Black sitcom binges really have been getting me through it. Because this weekend, Sylvia:, all I did --.
Sylvia: Ha ha!
Scottie: Was sit in my bed and watch Girlfriends. That's all I did! I ate and just watch Girlfriends. I'm on season three now, child. I got through it.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Honestly, I have love being able to watch all these Black-ass shows. I just feel so seen by so many of these characters and these storylines. Like the fact that I'm still haven't finished Moesha cus Lord knows there was a million seasons of that. And I still got Sister, Sister could there's a million seasons of that. And now I'm bringing Girlfriends into it. I'm overwhelmed in the best way.
Scottie: I'm doing Sister, Sisters in the morning and Girlfriends that night. So I'm breaking it up.
Sylvia: You got a schedule? [laughs]
Scottie: Let's let's talk about it. I've got to schedule about. Let's talk about it.
[Music In]
Sylvia: OK. So we definitely have spent the past few episodes talking about some of these Black sitcoms like Moesha, The Game. And of -- as of this past week, Girlfriends.
Scottie: And you know what all these shows have in common, Sylvia?
Sylvia: What's that? What's that, Scottie?
Scottie: Motherfucking Mara Brock Akil, that's who.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Ha ha! Ta ha!
Scottie: [crosstalk] Hello.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] The baddest. [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] The queen. The visionary. The legend.
Sylvia: You are absolutely right. Because Mara has literally had her hand in so many of these Black shows I love as the Black woman. She has really been the architect of how -- the architect of the representation I've seen in myself on TV. You want to talk about a visionary? She literally --.
Scottie: Whew!
Sylvia: When I think about the Black women, literally, when it went from Moesha to Girlfriends to Being Mary Jane to The Game, like it's -- she literally given me so many of my favorite strong Black leads. Haha. Like what I did there? So.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Mhmm. Love it. I love it so much.
Sylvia: So like, I literally -- it's hard for me to honestly pick even favorites because I love -- I really love so much of her work. But I have to say personally, when it comes to the representation that Mara has given us, what has truly impacted me the most is Girlfriends. Which is why I'm so glad it's on Netflix so that everybody can remember all the references I be making, ahaha, Scottie, because I literally--.
Scottie: Oh my God. Sylvia.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I'm so glad that you are on it and loving it. Because I told you! I told you this shit is the truth!
Scottie: [crosstalk] The fuck -- I -- I -- no. I knew that it was the truth --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] No, you knew that it was. You did.
Scottie: I just did not remember. I had no -- like I was 10 when this came out. So there was no way that I'm remembering any of this, especially me at 10. Me at 10 is completely different from now. So.
Sylvia: I know. But I think it's like I feel like I grew up with it because, like, it started when we were 10 but like, we were 17 by the time it ended. So I kind of did feel like these were the women who shaped what I thought. Like, what was I going to expect. You know what I mean? Like, I guess is how I thought as a teenager. Like, ooh, that's the next stage. I'm at the end of my teens, they’re at the end of their twenties, going into their thirties. Like, what's that going to be like? You know what I mean? Like I feel like I was like, listening to cool aunties --.
Scottie: Yeah.
Sylvia: And seeing what my future was going to be. And like what kind of bullshit to come -- that was coming my way or whatever else. But like I -- But I think honestly, what I loved the most and what it gave me is just really just the foundation and how much your Girlfriends can be the loves of your life and can be the foundational source of like ---.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Your soulmate. Your soulmates.
Sylvia: Your soulmate. And the representation she gave us of Black friendship on TV. Like Living Single definitely laid the foundation for Girlfriends. But I do feel like because I was so young when Living Single came out it wasn't yet on the streaming reruns that we can enjoy now. Like Girlfriends for me was like, oh, okay. Like it's all women. I mean, William was there or whatever. But like I do feel like it was very much like, it showed how not -- how not easy friendship is and how you have to still work around that and even have different personalities come together. And like, some of this shit is toxic. I ain't goin lie. Toni's selfishness.
Scottie: Super. Super. Super.
Sylvia: Like but -- and I, we all -- I mean, Scottie will tell you this. I, I am a Joan. I am very much a Joan. [laughs]
Scottie: You are severly a Joan. I -- first of all, I'm seeing it now, I'm on season three. I'm like, this is Sylvia. [laughter] Oh my god. This is -- every time she says something, I'm like, oh my God, that's Sylvia. It's Sylvia and a, and a few other friends, I have them. I'm like, oh my gosh. Look at them. Look at these girls! I see them! So it's -- it's interesting to see because I think again, younger me 10 to 17 was a different girl. I was a tomboy who was into sports.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: Who really didn't pay much attention to things that are on the tele -- that were on the television because I didn't feel seen anyway. So I gave up on that long time ago. Unless it was like, I don't know. I don't even think I was watching TV like that, honestly. So yeah. I never got to see that. But me now as a woman watching Girlfriends.
Sylvia: Woman to woman. [laughs]
Scottie: My God. I'm like, oh my God, this is our life. Like their speaking about --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Cus we're literally their age now. [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] We're living it right now! So I was -- When Joan was going through all the things like at 30 -- when she was turning -- turning 29 and she was losing her shit. And then at 30 she was like, I haven't done all these things. Like I need to do these things. She thought she would need to be a nudist. She got to get on the beach and do something wild.
Sylvia: Right.
Scottie: And they were playing never have I ever. And she's never done anything so.
Sylvia: Wow. Triggers. Me. [laughs]
Scottie: Yeah. So, you know, stuff like that, I was like, wow, this is definitely what we're going through, what I'm going through right now. So yeah..
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: I felt seeing now which is incredible that like TV is timeless too.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] That Mara: 's script.
Scottie: [crosstalk] I never really thought about that.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Mara: 's impact.
Scottie: Mara: 's -- Mara: 's writing.
Sylvia: Like her, her vision is --.
Scottie: The pen game --.
Sylvia: Strong. [laughs]
Scottie: The pen game, strong. She got the yopper on her. [laughter] The chop-per. Hold up. Wait a minute. It's a 22 with that motherfucking pen.
Sylvia: I'm about to fight you. [laughter]
Scottie: Mara: , girl.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] The -- wait a minute. It's a 22!
Scottie: That was a good -- It was great. It's great so far. I'm really enjoying myself with Girlfriends.
Sylvia: I'm so glad. Like I'm not deep into my binge yet because I just got my Wi-Fi and cable caught on in my new apartment.
Scottie: Okay!
Sylvia: So now --
Scottie: [crosstalk] Okay! [inaudible]
Sylvia: [crosstalk] So now we in it, though. I'm about to be like -- I am about to be able to do this at the pace I want to. And I am excited to relive this as a 30 year old woman and just see my friends in the situation. But I do -- and it's like, it's like a warm hug because it's like, wow, like, it's kind of like, okay, I can -- when I watch these episodes, I can remember thinking what I thought I would be like by that age. And now I can see like where I am at. And I kind of like that it's like, I'm able to have that recollection through this show in that way. And then, like, even just seeing like, oh, I do have my Maya and my Lynn and my Toni. And I didn't know I was going to have those growing up, you know what I mean, at that point yet.
Scottie: Yeah.
Sylvia: And like these women have been there more for me than these niggas. Wow. Mara: knew. You know what I mean? I mean, at least more consistently.
Scottie: Right.
Sylvia: You know, I used to watch Joan and be like, wow, she's a successful Black woman at 30. Can I do that? And it's like I literally -- it's not a house. I didn't have grandparents that left me a house, which is how Joan got her house, for the love of God, Twitter.
Scottie: Yes. Yes. [laughs]
Sylvia: My fucking God. Y'all love to ask a dumb question -- irrelevant question. Like y'all love to talk about--.
Scottie: But don't have no -- but don't have no motherfucking questions for that white woman on fucking Sex and the City. That's not confusing.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] They got --. Listen, listen. Joan's grandparents gave her that house.
Scottie: [crosstalk] What's her name? What's Sarah -- Jessica Parker's name?
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Carrie. Carrie Bradshaw.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Carrie! Bradshaw. Oh, I really don't know white women. It's --.
Sylvia: And I watched all of -- And that's the other thing. I watched Sex and the City. And this came, like Girlfriends kind of came after Sex and the City. Like, I think they maybe overlap for a hot minute. But like, I, I love that we got this shit. Cus I used to watch my mom and her friends watch Sex and the City and be like, damn, they ain't got no Black woman to watch? You don't what I mean, now that Living Single is over. And then Friends had come in between that time, too. So it really was needed because like we had kind of like lost that friend -- Black friendship tribe shit that was going on there. And it was sh -- it showed that we contain multitudes. It showed the diversity within diversity of Black women.
Scottie: Yes.
Sylvia: Like I don't even think we had ever gotten to see a Black woman like Lynn on TV before, before Girlfriends. Just specifically, like just this bohemian hippie bi-racial like student loans up to her ass. Like you know what I mean. Super smart, but very free spirited. Like you usually don't get to be both.
Scottie: Yeah.
Sylvia: Girlfriends from me honestly is the Mara show. I saw so much of myself and what I thought would be my future in it. And I am so -- it, it's just, it's also just really nice to look back now and be like, wow. So I did get to do so many things. Like I am moving into my own place and I had these things. And I, I am trying to figure out how to have the next version of that like these women are. And I just kind of feel seen and just understood is the real thing there. I feel understood by these shows. And that's what means the most to me about it. What Mara: show and a character made you feel that way the most?
Scottie: I would have to say, and this is a older one, but this is Being Mary Jane, for me. And yes, a lot of it is, is not me because, you know, I was not sleeping with a married man, you know, all that stuff like that -- I am -- I get it.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Just to be clear. And I mean, I'm not classist like Joan either. Just to be clear. Like we just do see parts of ourselves.
Scottie: Yeah, yeah. But there are parts of Mary Jane that I think I see myself in, and that's the work ethic. So it came out in 2014, I was 24 years old and I still was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I knew where I wanted to be. I just had to figure out how I was gonna do it. That's a better way of saying. Her work ethic from me was where I saw myself and where I wanted to be. You know how hard she worked. I was like, I need to be that dedicated. And also her leaving motivating like quotes on her wall, on her mirror and stuff like that. I do that a lot. And I never thought in a thousand trillion years that people do shit like that. [laughter] I do it -- I did it often. And around that time, too, I was living in a house that was not mine. I was living in an apartment that was not mine. So I kept those notes like in my notebook or, you know, would write it down on my phone or stuff like that. And whenever I felt really low, I would go back to those notes and just read them over and over again. She also never let them see her sweat. Like professionally, she could be going through some shit.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] She was [inaudible]--
Scottie: And she was gone through some shit.
Sylvia: Right.
Scottie: But she never took that into --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] When that camera came on --.
Scottie: Her job. When that camera came on, when that mic is hot? She did her thing. And that's what I love most about Being Mary Jane, too. I love that. Like, I love it. I love the professionalism, period, when it comes to, like, shutting out the world and doing what you love. You know?
Sylvia: Right.
Scottie: Yes, it's a mess in the back. And I know that you're not expecting, you know, yes. We're not perfect. But right here, where I want to be, my passion, what I love to do, this is going to be my number one priority right now.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: And I love that about Mary Jane. So, yeah. That's that's what I love. I aspired to be.
Sylvia: And she had Michael Ealy in her bed at one point, which is very aspirational.
Scottie: And and now, you know, that's why also. [laughter] I saw myself.
Sylvia: I knew! [laughs].
Scottie: [crosstalk] Because that is the number one reason. Hello
Sylvia: [crosstalk] We learned a few episodes ago how much, how you feel about, fuck them kids, Michael Ealy. [laughs].
Scottie: Okay? Hello. Shit. Shit.
Sylvia: I can't remember. Did she end up -- did she end up with him?
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Or did she turn on him --
Scottie: Yes. She married him.
Sylvia: She married him.
Scottie: No. She married him.
Sylvia: Oh -- Yeah. Okay.
Scottie: Remember the, the last --.
Sylvia: The very --.
Scottie: What was it, a movie? It was a Mary Jane movie.
Sylvia: Oh yes. It was the movie.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes.
Sylvia: OK. Thank you. That's what I was getting confused about, child.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Sylvia: Thank God, child. At Least -- Hey, at the end of your struggle storm, she's started the season sleeping with a married Omari Hardwick, the end of the series with Michael Ealy as her husband.
Scottie: [crosstalk] And she ends up marrying Michael motherfucking Ealy.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] If that ain't -- if that ain't a testimony--. [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] It does not get better. Hello.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] For what growth can do for your life.
Scottie: Oh man. Child.
Sylvia: You may think you're in the darkness now, sis. The wilderness.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Sis. But trust me, you too can marry a Michael Ealy.
Sylvia: But Michael Ealy comes in the morning. [laughs]
Scottie: Hello. Cus child, she was going through it. She had her moments. But yeah, I enjoy -- and I enjoyed that show very much. It was written very well.
Sylvia: Yeah. Mara is definitely the gift that keeps on giving. I'm thankful for her life, her -- and her pen.
Scottie: You know, Sylvia:, I think it's time we give Mara Brock Akil her flowers. What do you think?
Sylvia: I could not agree more, Scottie:. And I am so honored that we were able to chat with Mara and do just that. I'm honestly, I still can't believe we even got to have such a sister soul Auntie session with our shero. I'm still pinching myself. [laughs].
Scottie: Today, we welcome the blueprint. A woman who sets and raises the bar, whether it's breathing life into these networks or giving Black girls and women the opportunity to feel seen on their television.
Sylvia: Yes.
Scottie: Screenwriter, producer, creator Mara Brock Akil. Oh my God. I can't believe you're here.
Sylvia: Woo! We are not worthy!
Scottie: Okay. Oh yeah. And like Sylvia says, our coworker.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Our new coworker! Cus listen. [laughs] I'm writing that in my Twit -- that's the new Twitter bio for this week's episode, Mara Brock Akil is our coworker.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yo. Our coworker.
Sylvia: We are excited about it. Okay. They have given Mara the keys to the kingdom. We are just happy, happy, happy that Netflix made the right choice! The smart choice! To bring Mara aboard. [laughs]
Mara Brock Akil: I'm happy they did, too. Ladies, thank you for that beautiful introduction. I mean, come on. Who doesn't -- I mean, that was that was spirit filled. Thank you. I'll take that every day. I appreciate that.
Scottie: I just, I love you so much.
Sylvia: Scottie:'s great at that. She's -- We do it from the heart. But so let's just jump right into it. This month marks the 20th anniversary of your classic television series, Girlfriends.
Scottie: Oh my gosh.
Sylvia: And the series and all of its entire -- entirety is now on Netflix. Congratulations. How does it feel?
Mara: It feels amazing. It feels like Christmas. I, I, to be honest, I kind of gave up that this was gonna happen when all the other shows were streaming on the various platforms. I was like, oh, hello. What about Girlfriends? What about The Game? Y'all, come on! And it just didn't seem to happen and I didn't understand why. And so then I had to let go. So I can receive more, you know -- to open myself up so I can do more work. Right. And the blessing and alignment. We plan and God plans. And God is the best planner because I did not see this coming.
Scottie: Hey.
Mara: When I was over there making a deal for my -- making an overall deal, who knew, on the other side of the mothership, they -- this blessing was happening. And the alignment of it is nothing but God. I just -- I am. I'm in awe that, what, tomorrow will mark literally 20 years to the day that Girlfriends -- that my life changed?
Scottie: Wow.
Mara: And like, as you ladies said, Y'alls lives changed. [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] I mean it did.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Listen! I haven't been the same since. And it's like, it's it's insane that how -- I think it speaks to the quality of the show and the quality of your work that it still resonates across generations. Like we were teenagers -- you know, we're pre teenagers like when Girlfriends was going on.
Mara: Y'all should have been in bed. [laughs]
Sylvia: No, we ain't have no business in grown folk business but we was in there. We was in there.And I'm just so excited to re watch it now that I'm the age of Joan, Toni, Lynn and Maya, you know what I mean. And it's still that show to us. And why -- I just want to get your opinion on, why do you think that show still means so much? And like, why do you think that it still fills such a hole that, like, we're all still so thirsty for?
Mara: What is clear to me, I think, because I built the characters as human beings. I them -- the whole goal of the show or one of the goals is I wanted our humanity to be seen. I wanted the breath of who we are. You know, from the ratchet to the righteous to -- you know what I'm saying, to the -- [laughter].
Sylvia: [crosstalk] To the bougie. [laughs]
Mara: Yeah, this is a bougie to the, you know, eating raman to the eating too much sushi. I -- All of it. I wanted, I wanted all of us in there. All of who we are. I think one of, you know, I think a lot of artists are political in a sense. And my policy -- my politics is I wanted Black people, I want Black people to be seen as human. And I want us -- for ourselves. Number one. And then for the greater society so that we can have space in the world to be who we are and be great and be who -- you know and not, you know, sometimes it's you know, it -- what is it? Respectability politics. You know, we've spent so much of our life trying to be something else. And I want us to be who we are. Who we are is good enough. We are human. We're all those things. So I think the characters resonate because they were built with care. They were built with quality. They were built with having real human aspects to them, not not not selling out on the stereotypes just to get a show on. Really blessed to have had the space to tell these stories. And I'm really thankful that there's an audience because, you know, as an artist, you need an audience to have a conversation. And that what was put into it was felt and received. And each year, you know, that the -- you know, when people, when people --the word of mouth. Because at the time that's all Girlfriends really had. We don't have billboards, we didn't have any campaigns. It really spoke to the viewer and the viewer. So I have -- I'm just thankful to the viewers because the loyal fans have been there day one, been spreading the word. Whatever network it's gonna pop up on, wherever it shows up. But to be on Netflix with them, you know, to be on the biggest streamer in the world, to be there, people -- they know how to use it. They know -- they already have a -- hopefully they already have a subscription or they're getting one. So they can just binge it. Have a good time. Check out for a minute. Have some laughs. Be reminded of their humanity is huge for me. And Girlfriends was started on UPN when they thought the -- the network was going to cancel every, every week. The network, not the show. They thought the can -- the network wasn't gonna be around. And to create under those conditions and know that it had a place in the world. And then for it to be 20 years later, still relevant on this major platform is amazing. And so I'm thankful.
Sylvia: Yeah. And so you touched on something that like I've really want to talk to you about, which is you -- I love that you made the point to talk about how you made flawed characters, human characters, characters who were not following respectability politics. Because I do feel like as Black woman, especially when grow -- the journey from when Girlfriends was on and even when Being Mary Jane was on, we were used to -- we had to be kind of perfect to be something digestible for the mainstream public. And you've made a lot of, a lot -- I've thought about each of your -- the main charac-- the Black woman main characters in the shows you've created, whether it's Melanie Barnett or, you know, Joan, Toni, Lynne and Maya or Mary Jane, Nory. Like all of these characters, they're not perfect. They make quests -- they're not always even likable. And they make a lot of questionable choices. And I want to talk to, you know, like what -- you know, what was the decision that went into developing flawed Black women and flawed Black friendships and flawed Black love? Like I'm thinking about even like Joan and Toni, and the -- like their friendship and where it went. And, you know, people are about to experience that now grown. Like, dang. Would I be okay with my friend doing this to me? Or even like, you know, there's a lot of talk on Twitter about The Game when Melanie and Derwin and, like, you know, the decision for her to keep keeping him, you know. So like what -- like what kind of -- talk to us cus I think that people want to know, like what you, your intentions were with these situations?
Mara: I think when I entered into you know, to your point, I think there's still this pressure for Black people to be perfect, not just on television, but in life, in order for us to be -- to stay alive, in one case.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Survival.
Mara: Yeah. Or, or to just be accepted. And I don't believe that. I think that, you know, I believe that my -- I'm human. I'm here. And I deserve to be here flawed and all. And so and so if I want that for myself, I want that for my people so that's-- that is reflected in my art. And so one of the things that I really believe and write to is this idea that I don't believe in positive images or negative images. I'm -- positive images can be just as damaging as what people think negative images are. Because perfection is not real. It's not possible. So then why do we have Black people running a fool's errand trying to be perfect as opposed to being themselves? Spending that time and energy and asking, who are you? And the things that our parents or our grandparents are putting on us? Are those ours? Is that for us? We need to make space for the -- for who we are. And I mean, sometimes we can't always carry the burden or the, the baggage, one would say even of our own families. We have to heal those things. We need space for those things. And so being flawed, making your own way, taking the values of your family. Yes. But being able to make the choices for you, whether being you're -- and the way you identify as you identify. What your sexual preference is, what your job is, what your life looks like. We deserve that. We're owed that. Meanwhile, we're still fighting for our humanity. Right.
Sylvia: Right.
Mara: So by putting all of these issues in there, I think it helps us to reflect on who you are. Like you said, some of the characters aren't likable. Well, it's -- that's a mirror and a gauge for you, the viewer. Are you that way? Number one. And two, if someone's in your life that way, can you still love them and make space for them? If you can make love in space for Mary Jane, then you can certainly maybe sort of look at -- [laughter] you can look at some of your other friends and sort of try to understand them. You know what I'm saying. Or I didn't see it that way. Or more importantly, yourself. You know, I think one of the things I was even trying to, you know, talk about in that show was it's interesting how Black women sort of put a lot of the burden on themselves to think if it, if it wasn't for them, it would all fall apart. And I think I'm trying to say, no, Black women, that's not true. We also need to start taking care of ourselves before we always trying take care of everybody else. With Girlfriends, it was about, it was about, can we have it all? You know? And you see, Joan was running around but kill herself [laughs] trying to have it all.
Sylvia: Relatable.
Mara: Yeah. [laughter] But thank God there was a safe place. The support group as, as flawed and wonderful as it is. She had a safe place to land. So did Toni have a safe place to land. So did Lynn. So did Maya. And that's what we need also in our human experience, is a safe place to land and be.
Scottie: Somebody asked me a few days ago, what dream did I recently have to let go of? And I had said that it was the dream of others, of my family's, of my mother's, of, you know, my ancestors', even. Like even the people who came before me. Those dreams were placed on my back because they weren't able to, you know, see it. And I, and I get that. And I know that we have to carry that with us all the way. But I wanted to know when you, when did you start to get to that place where you said, okay, I have to let go of these dreams of others, like, that people placed on me. Not my own. I didn't even to start to think of my own. When did you start to actually say, okay, this is -- what is my dream look like?
Mara: Honestly, I've been thinking about it throughout my life. But to your point, it was as significant it is to my career and Girlfriends, there was a point in which I really -- I went to Northwestern. I went to become a journalism -- a journalist. I went to journalism school. The best. And I really was going down that path. And when people thought plan B would be advertising. Which, okay. She's gonna come right out of, out of school, go into Chicago. And I literally had that job offer. And then I was like, ah. Something told me, if I take this job -- by this time I wrote my first screenplay. And it was horrible. But it was the joy of my life. And I just remembered that feeling. That feeling that I loved that process and being with those characters more than I loved, like the guys that I was dating. And that actually woke me up. And I had to pay attention to that feeling. Anyway, no job prospects in that. And that was the first time I had to learn and -- how to tell my family what my dreams were. The second step, they're like, okay. So then it became a math problem. I became a manager at The Gap just to hold -- be able to hold my own. Like, pay the rent. Just like, math problem. I can take care of myself. Mommy, if you just kick me down with some car insurance, we be good. You know, like that -- that's like that. But that wasn't sustainable with a Northwestern degree. And I had to figure out how can I help them invest and buy in to -- and that's not necessarily more money, but invest in believing in me? You know what I'm saying? Because dreams sometimes you need that cause you're gonna -- you sometimes fall out of your own belief. You need support. That support system. Long story short, it was getting tight. And my -- I'm raised by a family of educators. And so they were starting to send me job applications and postings about teaching and all these other things. And I got really mad at them because I didn't think people believed in me. And when I realized one day, in stillness and in prayer, I heard this voice say, they believe in you. They don't know how to help you. And that's important. I think that would be important to know that our families do believe in us. They don't know how to help us. They don't have anybody they can call in Hollywood to say, look after my baby. They could call all of LAUSD and I could have a teaching job tomorrow. You know what I'm saying. On a track to be the principal probably. And a great life. But they couldn't help me in Hollywood. I was on my own. And when I forgave them, then I was able to tell them how they could help me. Grandma, can you feed me every Sunday and can I come over and wash clothes? And those conversations gave me a place just to land and think and so I can keep dreaming and plotting and planning the dream. And that sometimes is the support system that we need just so that we have enough space to go after that job. And then I got on the Sinbad show. And once I got on the Sinbad show, you meet Debbie Allen, you beat Ralph Farquhar, you meet all these amazing people. And then I'm on South Central and then I'm working on Moesha. You know what I’m saying. Then 25 years old, I’m on Moesha because I had that kind of support. And I think it -- I do think the shift was me. So thank you for asking because I forgot about that. And I think it was one of my big moments in my journey of success was forgiving them in the spirit of them not thinking they're not supportive, but they -- and letting their dreams go and going for mine.
Scottie: And speaking of confidence, you've talked about pushing to get that show credit for season three Girlfriends and being ready to walk if it didn't happen. How did you find that courage as a Black woman to hold your ground on that? And also, what should compromise look like for a Black woman in Hollywood?
Mara: Early on, I met Keenan Ivory Wayans in this business, like when I was like way before the show run -- show runner status. And I remember one thing he said that caught my attention and I always stuck with it. And he was like, understand the power of no. And so part of that power was putting myself in a position to walk away. So money is important. How you manage money is a very important thing. So my ability to say no and be willing to walk away was my a abil -- My management of money and to be privatized, which I will also attribute to my mother, my grandmother. They taught me that those values, those things helped me in a way. So when Hollywood thinks they got you and sometimes, you know, you spin in -- above your means, it's not -- you can't say no. I didn't have children at the time. Had a very -- I have a very supportive husband at the time. I mean, still. And I had to decide what was more important to me. And I also understood -- we talk about compromise. I also understood the show. Like, know who you are in the moment. And I also know the show was successful. And that it was, it was making money for the network. It was successful for them. I knew that I was the key to that success. And I had to figure a way of how to help them see that. And so there is a moment where, you know, they needed me and I still needed them, but they needed me if they wanted that show to be successful and hold that slot. And so I, I, I rolled the dice on faith. But then sometimes when you win, you know, also the deck is stacked against you. But I'm like Kobe, I'm like LeBron. I'm like, all them. Give me the ball. I want the ball. I'm going to take the -- I'm like Damian Lillard. I want the shot. Give me the shot.
Scottie: Right. Because a lot of woman in our industry -- Black women in our industry period, just don't know whether to compromise or what compromise looks like anymore because it's like, am I like throwing it all away? Am I doing this right? Am I compromising right --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yeah. Making a bad business decision.
Scottie: Right.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Scottie: Me walking out, Is that me being an angry Black woman now? Like, I don't know.
Sylvia: And then they also gas us, so many of us to feel like we don't have the keys. Like we won't make the show.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Right, right.
Sylvia: Like we aren't key -- like, you knowing that you were key to the show, I've been in so many situations where I know I was key to a project but --.
Scottie: Yes.
Sylvia: The people around you will make you feel like you're replaceable.
Scottie: Right.
Sylvia: That you're not key. You know what I mean, that you like, like do the opposite of like empowering you in the sense where you really have to know that true to yourself, because like people around you will make you feel like it's not the case.
Scottie: Right. Self-awareness is the key.
Mara: Self-awareness. But I Think, you know, one things I've been really practicing more and more is meditation, stillness. You know the voice of truth. Sometimes, you know, when people are gassing you up, gassing yourself up or whatever, you know, when there's compromise. And so one of my things was, even as I said what I had to say, I didn't roll my eyes. I didn't -- I wasn't stomping out of there, I wasn't yelling. I wasn't -- I was in compromise. I'm telling you what is best for the show. I spoke the language of value. I am what's best for the show. I can honestly tell you that if you decide to move forward with this show, it will not be as successful without me. And then I also had receipts. Meaning like, it was promised to me. So I want to know what changed? What haven't I done? Because you can check all that I've done. So when you just sort of speak and it may not be comfortable for you, but it's right. And so this is what I'm willing to do. And I think just by speaking up for ourselves, you get to see where people really are. That that -- the last thing I'll say is I've also learned, we say the word compromise is, I think it's important, especially in my role as a showrunner and a leader, a visionary. You have to be able to -- I always say I speak many languages, but I only speak English. So it is my job to help communicate and it's can be tiring at times. But the way you talk to executives is one way. The way you talk to actors is another way. You talk to the writers, the way you talk to the crew. It's part of, in the role, to galvanize everybody and empower them to that vision. And when you sort of build that around you, it's -- it becomes in some cases, a no brainer for the the the moment you're asking about, am I compromising? Am I making the wrong move or the right move? You'll know, this is valuable. This is my value. This is what we said. And can I just get what, what's fair? And I think I can fight on fair.
Sylvia: I love that earlier you talked about how, you know, some of this advice came from my Keenen Ivory Wayans and how you mentioned, you know, even you've -- I saw you've posted on Instagram about the community, about being -- like how you got your job on Moesha and just kind of how the community leaned on each other. And we all know that there's very few Black people in this industry. And one of the things I've loved is like with all these shows coming back on Netflix is seeing the credits and seeing how many recognizable names are in the credits of these shows that didn't know them then but I know these names now. Like whether it's you being brought on to work on Moesha, seeing your name in those credits. Or, you know, seeing, you know, knowing that Lena Waithe has spoken openly about her work with you on Girlfriends and how she was motivated and inspired by you. Seeing Kenya Barris' name, all up and through The Game. I was like, wait a minute.
Scottie: [crosstalk] All up and through. Every single -- listen.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I was like, what? And so it really looks like you got, you've been fostered in or you've even fostered your own community of Black creators. Was this intentional? Or is this what survival looks like for you all, you know as coming up.
Mara: It's legacy. You know, one of the beautiful things, specially about around the Moesha days and even the Sinbad days, the segregation of our programing created our sort of Hollywood HBCUs, you know what I'm saying. We only -- there was very limited places for us to go. And you're just around that love, you're around that place to be. I think my -- Ralph Farquhar, Sara Finney-Johnson and Vida Spears, they created a place for me to learn. You know, I learned how to make TV. They weren't selfish and hoarding the the the the the skill set of how to do this. They opened the doors. And anytime they open a door, y'all, I was there. I was there. I was there doing the most. Like what do you need? [laughter] I was always -- and I think that's important. I think I became the go to person and bit -- But the benefit is I learned how to make the sausage. I am so, you know, I wasn't always -- although there was a lot of fun and parties and things of that nature, but I was there to learn and absorb how to do this. And so I watch -- witness my mentors pulling up, lifting as they climbed.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Right.
Mara: They hired Black people. They wanted us there. You know what I'm saying. They looked for us. They had to teach sometimes as they were also, were being hired. It was a teaching course because we didn't have the experience of the doors were always open for us. So that is important to me. I'm a, I'm connected to a link. And so what was -- and how do you pay that forward? How do you say thank you? People want to use thank you a lot, but how do you say thank you? I -- You pass that forward? And that's what I did to Kenya. That's what I did to Kenny Smith. Karin Gist. Lena Waithe. Prentice Penny. I'm so proud of all them. I think they all have overall [inaudible]-- Jeni Rice. All of those --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Right.
Mara: Came through and taught them how to make the sausage. And also gave them place to be, have a voice, make mistakes and learn from them and grow. And that's how we move forward.
Scottie: I mean, like Toni Morrison said, I always say it, the function of freedom is freeing someone else. So that's exactly what we have to do and we have the responsibility to do. But you mentioned that working with Netflix would allow you the space to do what you do best, which includes painting portraits and murals of women. Talk to us about why this is so crucial to your work.
Mara: Black women -- well, my muse are Black women. The marginalized, the invisible. We are not seen. Yet, I see -- I see all the beauty in us. I mean, I was raised by this beauty and this complexity, too. I mean, we're not perfect. I love, I love the imperfections. Like in the Japanese culture, they have a term called wabi-sabi. And wabi-sabi is the beauty in imperfections. And I think but we need to be seen, you know. And so I'm just, I'm just trying to let people see us the best way I know how. And using and doc -- using art and commercial art to expose us to ourselves as well as to a larger audience. So I'm just painting portraits. And like Girlfriends was whole -- my whole theory about that was I just want to document our existence. This is what we were thinking and doing in the year -- at the turn of the century. This is what we were saying, how we were saying it, how we were doing it. So imagine -- I'm just scratch -- I've, I feel like I've only scratched the surface. I think my my -- it's interesting, my vision of my storytelling I reached with Love Is, I think when I first got off the boat in to Hollywood, that's how I saw -- in my head, that's how things looked in my head. I also knew I didn't know how to make that show just yet. Also, they weren't buying that show then. Right. So.
Sylvia: [laughter] Right.
Scottie: Right.
Mara: So now that I know how to make what is in my head and at that level of quality an expression that I want, teaming up with Netflix they believe in that same quality of expression. They have the resources. They have the reach. And they have the attraction to the type of stars and talent I want to work with. Like one funny story I always love to tell. I have Regina King's picture on my wall because she was Joan. That was like the muse for Joan. So when it was time for Joan to get cast and was like, did Regina call back? Did Regina call back? [laughter] But this is at a time that every other week in the trays, UPN may not make it. So, of course, Regina's not calling back. Right. This is -- she's all -- she has done, you know, Boyz N the Hood, 227 -- this girl, yeah. That's cute. And it's funny because we laugh about it now. But it's fun that I'm able to tell her that story. Right. And so can attract that kind of talent. Netflix, I'm just excited about the resources we'll be able to partner together and what we'll be able to do in in that parity, in that shared vision of making hits globally. So I'm excited.
Sylvia: Yeah, and you mentioned, that's a very global audience. And you've had this -- you know, you've had this history of launching and, you know, kind of even reviving networks with your shows, whether it was Moesh -- I mean, whether it was Girlfriends and UPN or The Game and CW and Being Mary Jane with BET. And now here you are at Netflix. And I think the difference to me is a little bit how quintessentially Black those other networks are versus Netflix, which is -- well, we're making it very Black every day. I'm glad you're here to join us. But like, you know, like [laughter] it is very global. It's a, it's a global, it's a global international platform.
Mara: Our culture is global. Let's be honest with it.
Sylvia: It is.
Mara: Black is a global franchise. And we've been saying that forever. And now there's a measurement to prove it. I knew that Girlfriends and Being Mary Jane was was like killing it. You -- just from the grass roots reports that over in the continent of Africa, that it in places like Nigeria and Ghana and South Africa, it was hot. It was lit. Or in the --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Right.
Mara: Or in the diaspora in London. And I'm like, but, you know, where are the metrics? Where are the metrics? I know it's a global audience. And so I also have a goal that our human story is a global one, which I know. And here's an opportunity to prove that. And so I'm, I'm excited about that, too. But it's it's interesting launching -- and thank you for acknowledging that the launching of those networks and although I'm very, very, very, very proud of either like launching or being a part of a launch or re -- or a relaunch or reimagining. That's a lot of work. That's a lot of work. You got to make it. You've got to teach. It's a lot. So to come in and just have the resources. I'm excited. I'm really excited about what the, what the opportunity presents itself. It's like walking into a studio and having all the paints, can -- all the different sized canvases I want. I got light. I got a, I got a studio, you know what I'm saying. You're not working out the back of your car or something. [laughter].
Sylvia: Right.
Mara: And so I'm excited about, you know, what's possible. And then also reaching that point, like, the Love Is to be a -- I directed, wrote, produced that and to have such a full expression and to get that out at a time, now then about to launch into this deal -- or in this deal -- is exciting as well. Like where my voice is.
Sylvia: Yes. And that speaks to, I'm glad you brought up about where your voice is. Because I was really just thinking about the trajectory of your career, even just as you grow in the world and grow as a woman. Because it dawned on me that you were literally my age when you created Girlfriends, which makes me feel like I --.
Scottie: Stress.
Sylvia: That stress.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Stress. I'm talking about --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I mean, It felt like a personal attack. I said, She was 30?! I'm 30 now! Noo! [laughs]
Mara: Don't you do that to yourself.
Sylvia: I know, I know. This is not the -- it's not about that. It's about you. But I'm not saying, I'm not saying that to guilt you. But like to me, it also like, you know, you were in your thirties and that shaped those characters and that narrative and that outlook on love, life and, you know, like you said, trying to have it all. And then, you know, in your 40s with Being Mary Jane. And then Love Is right before you hit 50, which you are now. And I'm wondering even like how you think your outlook may -- on life and just everything you, the wisdom you've acquired now as a 50 year old woman. When it comes to the new worlds and new women that you're going to create in a new narrative, how does your outlook on life now at 50? Is that -- do you see how that's going to impact your voice at all?
Mara: It is. I bring myself to my work. I mean, that is very true. And my feelings and my, you know, perspective. I'm watching a lot about what's happening in our world, you know what I'm saying. You know, if you notice too, one of the -- one of the subjects I talk a lot about throughout a lot of the programs is class. It's not just race that I talk about it from the lens of Black people, but the -- we're so disparate in our, in our experience in the world. And also to each other. That is a continuum. I think how, how the, the latest Civil Rights movement is going to impact us. You know, the movements. I even find -- you know, I actually find your generation beautiful and challenging in a lot of ways. And inspired by. You know, finding that different language and rhythm. We're still experiencing the same things. Like you're -- I mean, that you're talking about being 30 and where are you in your career of success? Right. I was having the same conversation. You saying, I was having the same conversation with myself. You know, so but the way we're experiencing it, the way we talk about it, the way we move through it, the way circumstances are in society, the dismantling of institutions means there's new rules. So what does that mean and how does that have effects? So I think I have -- I just spoke about, you know, having the the luxury of a little space and the right resources to think and be and be reflective and sort of pull those through lines through. And then also attract those new voices who have a lot to say. I remember being young Mara in the writers' room, having a lot to say, wondering when I can say it. You know what I'm saying. To really help and really feel like I'm really helping and impacting the show. I remember -- well, here's a fun story. So I used to pitch -- so Moesha and Kim, I was like, their friendship has to take a hit. Is like is to -- there was a time like, I just felt like it was a little too everything is easy. And so one of the fights that I was pitching was I think, Moesha's gonna call Kim a bitch or somebody will call somebody a bitch. I remember that. And I remember my, you know, my mentors, they were like -- and the show runners, they were like, no, that's not gonna happen in my show. And, you know what, and I was a little frustrated because I really thought I was cutting -- I was trying to be sort of cutting edge. And this is what's happening. This is how we talk to each other. This is how it is. Whether right or wrong, let's put it on there and explore it. Right. But they didn't want to. And I respect that. But one of the things Ralph used to always say to me, he would say -- and I would pitch it a few times, cus I was passionate. [laughter] So and they would say, a way to shut me down nicely and, and I could have my dignity, was he would say, save it for your pilot. And I knew that was a self-deprecating, you know, and so I'm like, it was a way to laugh and kind of sink back into your seat, rethink. But then I started. It's like, wait. I am gonna save it for my pilot. And I started writing down all the things that they did want to tell in their story. And that's perfectly fine. But that's what I want to say. I learned how to find what I wanted to say. And I'm not afraid to talk about those things. I'm not always saying everybody's right or everybody's wrong, but this is what's happening in culture and how can we examine it and give different points of view. And what I want to do is keep finding my voice right where I am, where I see the world, and invite those new voices to challenge me. You know what I'm saying. So that we are having a really rich conversation with the audience through a hit show.
Scottie: Yeah, I think in order to be a visionary, you have to be a master learner. And I think that's what you are. And I've always wanted to know -- through years, of course, of learning and experiencing, I think you're still going to learn past 50, past 60, past 70 you're going to continue to learn. But I always wanted to know this about you as the person, the human, what are you still trying to prove to yourself?
Mara: I didn't know we was going to therapy. [laughter]
Scottie: No!
Mara: Hey, hey, we getting deep.
Scottie: I'm sorry!
Mara: That was a good -- what am I still trying to prove to myself? That I don't have anything to prove. Right where I am, literally right now, my practice and my learning is receiving what I have manifested in co-created with God.
Scottie: Yeah.
Mara: And I think that part is huge because that's a letting go. That's a control issue. That's all the things that have driven me and I can mark as a way to be successful. But I think right now is just to be.
Scottie: Right, because at 30s --in my thirties, we romanticize, like having it all together and when that will be. And I know there's a lot of pressure. This could be my therapy session, I don't know. But -- [laughter] but because it's amplified through quarantine where like, you have to have it all together for 30. And --
Mara: No, you don't.
Scottie: I have to --.
Sylvia: Please tell her. I tell her, I'm 30. I've been 30 for, like, six months. I keep tell -- we don't have it all together. And I'm, I'm very new into it so my advice goes above and overhead. I feel like, Mara you're a better person -- [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] Right. But like having Mara say that, right, where she said, you know, have -- when you decide you have nothing to prove.
Mara: You know what I want to pass on to the next generation. And if you can learn it faster than I did. I really want you to practice stillness, meditation and yoga, which is a, is an inward exploration. I think what we've experience all the way up until now is that success and everything we need is outside of self. Having material things are fun and good and trust and understand that. You know what I'm saying, so when you go buy something by the quality. Buy -- plot and plan for that thing you want. Enjoy the journey to that thing you want. But really, what I would love for you to do is go inward in your exploration. If you could practice and harness that and learn how to take five minutes out of your day just to sit still for a second. To hear yourself. You will get to where you're trying to go better. Because one of the things you may not be doing is, is being clear with what you want. You may not be clear in your vision. You might be borrowing from so many different -- the influences you guys have in your generation versus mine is mind blowing. Like you're getting hit with somebody else's vision of themselves or of the world. And when do you have the time to think about you or what it is you want? Like we talked about family. You know, letting go of family dreams. But soon as you kind of deal with that, if you on Instagram for more than five minutes or just anything, even the field that we're in that we love, that we're inspired by. But let that be an inspiration, not a guide post. Your guide post is inside, not outside. I believe, you know, I don't believe -- I don't -- I think just said it in Being Mary Jane, you don't have to tear down to build.
Scottie: [crosstalk] You never.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Never, never, never
Mara: And so I think sometimes in some things you'll know if it's time to walk away. You understand that. But I think there's -- there might be some other ways to approach things. I think the first thing when I talk about go into self, I think we're such at odds with each other. I've seen a lot -- and this would be one of my challenges for your generation. You guys want so much. And I understand it and I have compassion for it by the way. You want so much so quickly, you're not really able to focus on where you're at. You're going to miss -- you're going to miss so much of your life --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] That's it !
Mara: And you're going to get to 50 and be like, I don't even remember what I did. I hope you don't do that. I hope you remember what you did because you'll be present for the lessons and the blessings and the fun of it all, you know. And so I think that the the willingness to to do the work and understand the process, like I told you about my mentors. Learning to make the sausage, cooking in the kitchen, like literally, I think all of us in this pandemic, we either - we learned how to cook or we cooked better or, you know, whatever, because we had -- that's what you had to do. And there's joy in that -- that that return to learning how to do that. There's joy there. So wherever you are, I would just say be there.
Scottie: Thank you.
Sylvia: Thank you. Thank you, Mara. Because listen, she going listen to you. She don't listen to me. So I'm happy about it. Okay. So we have two quick final questions. One is petty. So I'm gonna ask you real quick. And so -- it's not petty, it's more like a personal desire that I need to know, cus I have access to you today. Whose decision was it to make Toni mispronounced Jabari's name --.
Mara: Oh god!
Sylvia: Every, [laughs] every time. I need to know, Mara. I need to know. Cus it's funny and everybody is about to be talking about it on Twitter.
Scottie: Jujubean is hilarious. Yo. [laughter]
Mara: That was one of the greatest joys. And when -- there were days like, say, if I had to do phone calls. And the writers were waiting on me to -- for something, they would just -- there -- they would pass the time by writing down all the J words Toni could say. [laughter] Just to warm up the room, we would just have it. It was just -- to be honest, I don't know whose idea it was. I don't know if it was my own. It was such a collective by the end of it. It was just so much fun. It was one of the most joyous parts of just be -- and Jill, did she slay that every time? I mean, like --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Everytime!
Mara: [crosstalk] Everytime!
Sylvia: Straight faced!
Scottie: [crosstalk] Straight! From the heart. She was speaking from the heart.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Just like, and she would look like, ain't that your name? That's your name, right? Like [laughs]
Scottie: Like it wasn't a joke. Not a smile.
Mara: Not a smile. She killed that.
Sylvia: Jabuki, what? [laughter]
Scottie: [crosstalk] Jujubee. Juju. Yo -- I live.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Jabari, huh, what? Juju who?
Mara: [crosstalk] Oh my God. That was so much fun. But I don't remember. I want to say -- anyway. I I -- we gonna say that's the collective. That's the collective writers' room.
Sylvia: That's the collective.
Mara: Yeah.
Scottie: Amazing.
Sylvia: And I'll let Scottie take the last, our very last question cus be like to end on a positive note always.
Mara: Oh, this is positive. The whole thing. Thank you, ladies.
Sylvia: Yes.
Scottie: Of course. What is bringing you joy right now?
Mara: What is bringing me joy? Like that list is long. I knew about my privilege, my hard earned privilege. I did work for this. I worked very hard. But it makes my heart feel more compassion to figure out how to help more. I, i -- you know what I'm saying. And just in -- and so I think even the, when you say joy, I do think that, how do -- how can I give back?First it starts with self. And that is -- and I really have been -- yoga and meditation has given me great joy. And I want to give that back. It has been a piece that I have, I have not consistently done in my life until quarantine. And I can't tell you how wonderful that was. I think the giving back -- cooking dinners for my children sitting at the dinner table, that actually brings me great joy. How much we rush through, that's not -- Not that I never had dinners with my kids. But the consistent level.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Mara: I'm, I'm lighting candles. I put candles up. I put flowers up. Like, I, I, I just -- obviously my deal and Netflix is bringing me joy. You know what I'm saying, that --.
Sylvia: Hey! Hey! [laughs]
Mara: I mean, let me just be real about that. You know what I'm saying.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Listen.
Mara: Let me be --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Bags and joy. When you can have both at the same time! We love to see it.
Mara: [crosstalk] Yes. [laughter] I mean just to -- I ,emean, to really have something that I really wanted and it manifest. I'm, I'm happy and proud of that. My family brings me joy. And then also, I'm also very inspired by the movement that we're in. Because I do think that it is making those of us who maybe were a little passive or not as involved as we should be. Here's, here's an easy way to say it. The good guys have got to put in more work. The thing I love -- the bad guys, they are consistent. They know urgency and consistency very well. The good people are rising. And they're just like, no. And that brings me joy to see us, humanity fight back against evil, because that's like what we're dealing with. We are, we are figuring out how to fight back. Even you asking the question is a reminder that there's so much more for us to fight for. That brings me joy. And then when I do give back. I mean, I'm finding more joy because its intent -- it's so intentional in the fight for humanity. For, I feel like I'm in a Star Wars movie. Like good and evil. Like it's like, I wanted to -- I really want to be -- I want to give more than I have taken from this life experience. And every day that I do that, that brings me joy and gives me hope for the next day.
Scottie: Thank you, Mara. That was beautiful.
Sylvia: Thank you so much.
Scottie: And joy is an act of resistance. So you just standing in your joy is rebellious and you know, it's Blackness altogether. So thank you so much, Mara , for sitting with us, talking to us. Oh, this has been so great.
Sylvia: This is such a good con --I feel like balm. You know --
Scottie: [crosstalk] Right.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Pour like, this is like shea butter all over the conversation. I loved it. [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] It was really beautiful.
Mara: Thank you. Thank you for -- I wouldn't be here without you. Meaning we need a conversation. I appreciate the conversation we've had through the work and I appreciate today's conversation. It was, in the celebration of this 20th anniversary and the celebration of this new deal, this was a beautiful conversation to have and be a part of my memory. Being here with you is really lovely.
[Music In]
Scottie: All right, now is a time where we put y'all onto things we enjoy in hopes that you can enjoy it, too. Sylvia, what are you recommending this week? [.
Music Out]
Sylvia: Scottie:, I got to be honest, I'm about to be real Black. This is about to be a real Black --.
Sylvia: Be real Black then!
Sylvia: A real Black ass recommendation, because during the aforementioned Auntiechella that was the Gladys and Patti Verzuz, I, like a lot of my African-American brothers and sisters [laughs] ordered soul food to get the full experience while watching.
Scottie: [crosstalk] So did I.
Sylvia: You know, I -- it just felt right to have greens, mac and cheese something, fried while watching Patti and Gladys. I think I peaked, like the Blackness peaked and, You know, with that kind of cuisine comes a favorite condiment of our people, [laughs] which is hot sauce. Hot sauce is key to most soul food dinners. And I discovered a new hot sauce which -- but a lot of people know we stick to our hot sauces more than we stick to our relationships. Like when you find a good hot sauce, it's like finding a good man. You hold onto it. You don't really change your ways. Sweet Baby Ray's. A lot of you know them for the barbecue sauce. We use their barbecue. They have a new hot sauce. And baby. Baby.That's why it's called Sweet Baby Ray's cus that thing said i-- makes you say sweet baby! That Sweet Baby Ray's Hot sauce on my mac and cheese and fried catfish just really, it really just took me over the edge because I am usually -- I know usually it's like people are very like either they're Crystal or they're like a Frank's, you know the, the regular Tabasco. There's a lot of different varieties and people usually have their allegiances regionally. Sweet Baby Ray's new hot sauces might now be my number one. And I have no apologies for it. I just really want to make sure that y'all knew, that y'all knew that it exists, that it's out there in the stores able for you to go try it out. Because I -- because now that I know I have to sing it from the mountaintop that there is a new hot sauce in town and she's a bad bitch coming for your faves.
Scottie: I am going -- this is a safe space because [laughter] I've made one and you've made it one.
Sylvia: Oh, God.
Scottie: I'm gonna come clean right now and say that I just got put on to hot sauce as a whole. Period. Yes.
Sylvia: When you say, just got put on --
Scottie: Just got put on like a month ago.
Sylvia: What you mean by just? What you mean -- like you just decided to try it out? Cus I know your family been having hot sauce. Don't do your -- I know you family been having hot sauce --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] No. My family got hot sauce. Yes. They're Caribbean. They love spicy shit. I'm not a big fan of spicy shit. I'm not a fan of hot shit. I -- how am I going to enjoy this meal when there is something burning in my mouth? There's nothing that makes me --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Well, I don't want that kind of hot sauce either. I'm not that level either. I like a flavorful hot sauce.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Here's the thing, I wasn't exposed to the flavored hot sauce.
Sylvia: Ahh.
Scottie: So there is this thing called Frank's hot sauce?
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Yes. That's my -- that's the one that --this is my usually is my damn favorite.
Scottie: And I sprinkled a little bit.
Sylvia: What you put it on?
Scottie: A chicken wing.
Sylvia: [laughs] Of course it was a chicken wing.
Scottie: And I said, Wow. [laughter] Wow. I think I'm an adult now. And so that's the reason why I'm going to try the Sweet Baby Ray's.
Sylvia: Yeah. Cus so we're in line.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yeah. Okay. Cus I'm scared.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] So we're in step with our hot sauce taste then because if Frank--.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Okay.
Sylvia: If you like Frank's, Frank's was my nigga. Like Frank had been in every home I've had, you know what I mean. But if you ain't try a little Frank's or in this case, like I said, Sweet Baby Ray's hot sauce on a mac and cheese, on a protein, a fried protein. Baby, you haven't lived!
Scottie: [crosstalk] I'ma try it.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] You haven't lived. And I just want to congratulate you, Scottie:, for unlocking and --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Thank you. Trying something new.
Sylvia: Someday unlocking a new level of Blackness in your life .
Scottie: Of Blackness. Absolutely.
Sylvia: [laughs] I can't believe --.
Scottie: Because there are, there are a lot of unlocked levels --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] This is --.
Scottie: That I am-- cannot share right now.
Sylvia: Oh My God.
Scottie: Cus I do not want this show to be boycotted [laughter] but I --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] This is a secret Black girl con -- confession right here, a Black girl confession.
Scottie: [crosstalk] This is for real. And I need y'all not to take it to Twitter.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] They're gonna take it to Twitter.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Just leave it here. I'm gonna
Sylvia: [crosstalk] you know they, they aim -- They're like our cousins. They can't keep it to themselves. They going take it to the Twitter streets. [laughs]
Scottie: So. Yeah. So, you know, but I'm enjoying it now. And thank you. You know I'm having a good time.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] You've come -- and that's what matters. And that's what matters.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Yes. Yes
Sylvia: Is that you have arrived at the proper destination.
Scottie: So. Absolutely, Sylvia:. Thank you for the recommendation.
Sylvia: Go get it while it's hot, kids. Go get it's hot Blacks. I promise you, it's lovely. So that's my Black ass recommendation for today. Scottie:, what are you putting the people on to this week?
Scottie: Whoowee, child! I bought Black Girl Sunscreen. And I've been looking. I've been looking over -- it says -- That's the name of it. Black Girl Sungreen.
Sylvia: [laughs] That's why I'm laughing, though. I think I saw it on your IG.
Scottie: [crosstalk] I'm looking all over the world for a sunscreen that doesn't make me look like I have --.
Sylvia: Ash.
Scottie: Foundation on -- right. Foundation that are three shades lighter than me on. It dries quickly and completely. It does not make me oily at all.
Sylvia: Ooh.
Scottie: And yes. And like, I don't need to reapply.
Sylvia: What?
Scottie: Like, I wore it all day. I had a good time. It was sheer. It was perfect. Like it wasn't heavy. I just was just so happy to have something that was light on my face that, that came with SPF because it's very important, yes, for Black people to wear sunscreen --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] It is. Every day.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Please, Black people don't start with the whole -- Jesus, please.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Especially because people think it's just about the skin cancer stuff or the melanin blocks that. But also we deal with hyper pigmentation and nobody deals with dark spots more than Black women. And ya'll know that sunblock.
Scottie: [crosstalk] That helps.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] It's supposed to prevent your b-- dark spots in your skin colors from getting even more discolored from each other. And that's really the key note that should make all of us run to the, to the hills to get SPF, because dark spots are my -- is my number one issue when it comes to my skin. And I am so glad -- like when I found out it was because I was walking around without fucking sunscreen on, I was like, what? So yes, sorry.
Scottie: Alright. It gives you a glow. It's clear. I just and it's, again, like I am very happy, I'm super satisfied. And it's only been a few days. And from what I can tell, you know, people have been telling me that it really helped with their hyper pigmentation.
Sylvia: Oh, nice.
Scottie: Quickly, too. Like just in a jiffy. And I haven't used jiffy in a while.
Sylvia: Wow.
Scottie: So, yeah, I, I love that I'm going t --. And it's also made by a Black woman. So. [inaudible]
Sylvia: [crosstalk] We love that. And I -- it better be there with that name. I love that the name is straight to the point.--.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Hello. Shit. We don't know. Child.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I know. Cus Lord knows they will give us the African pride and be like, [laughs] say Black owned.
Scottie: You know what's crazy,I was running on a treadmill today. Huh? And I did five miles and --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Wow.
Scottie: You know, on the treadmill where they have the video where you can imagine running where they place you.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Oh okay. No, I don't cus I don't run on a treadmill but sure.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh wait. [laughter] I -- there's white people, there's, you know, more white people who look at you running.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Oh wow!
Scottie: [crosstalk] You're running past a bunch of white people. Yeah. It's crazy. And then I bump into this white person with dread -- who has dreadlocks, a dreadlock wig. And it's a group of them. I have to write a letter to Life Fitness.
Sylvia: [laughs] What?
Scottie: Because, what?
Sylvia: [crosstalk] What? What kind of hell simulation were you in? [laughter] You can't even --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] I almost --.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Wait, you can't even run on a treadmill without being fucking --. [laughs]
Scottie: Yo. It's crazy. I'm so triggered.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Without dealing with --.
Scottie: In fact, I was like, hold on. I almost tripped over my foot. [laughter] Cus I was like, wait, who is this group of white people who are dressed as Bob Marley. Like, it was crazy. It was nuts. And I was like -- and it kept showing these people.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] And you have to deal with cultural appropriation on a digital treadmill while working out.
Scottie: [crosstalk] On a digital -- nigga.
Sylvia: You can't even work out in peace.
Scottie: A simulat -- nigga. I literally --
Sylvia: [crosstalk] A simulate -- you had to, you were attacked with racism from the confines of your own home gym. That's some wild shit right there.
Scottie: [crosstalk] [inaudible] Right. I just wanted some green pastures.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] They -- it wasn't -- what they couldn't even just hire some real Black people with locks to run by?
Scottie: No, no, no! There's not a Black person in there. And all I wanted was some green pastures and some clouds. Just give me those things and I'm fine.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] And they gave you ra -- They gave you cultural appropriation and racism.
Scottie: [crosstalk] They gave me white people in dreads.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] That's wild.
Scottie: [crosstalk] And with the Jamaican colors on. I was like, this? Guys.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Shut, shut your mouth. Right now.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh, I had to do it.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Was it Miley Cyrus? [laughs]
Scottie: [crosstalk] The next time I do -- child, it could have been. I --I just know for a fa -- I'ma take a picture of it next time whenever I decide to--
Sylvia: [crosstalk] I'm screen -- Please. That is wild.
Scottie: [crosstalk] motivate myself to do five miles. But we're gonna have to have a talk Life Fitness.
Sylvia: My mind is blown.
Scottie: My mind is also blown.
Sylvia: Well that's a different kind of putting us on to some fuck, shit is what you did just then. And I --.
Scottie: [crosstalk] Oh yeah. Run on a different treadmill.
Sylvia: [crosstalk] Good to know. Trigger warning. Trigger warning if you run on that.
Scottie: [crosstalk] That's crazy.
Sylvia: That's crazy.
Scottie: Anyway, that's when I'm putting you on to. [laughter] Black Girl Sunscreen.
[Music In]
Sylvia: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. All right. That's our show.[laughs] Thank you all for tuning in.
Scottie: Our show is a production of Pineapple Street Studios in partnership with Netflix and Strong Back Lead. Shout out to our team. Executive Producers are Agerenesh Ashagre and Jasmyn Lawson. Lead Producers Jess Jupiter and our music is by Amanda Jones. Special thanks to Max Linsky and Jenna Weiss-Berman.
Sylvia: Make sure you share your thoughts with us on the episode using the #OkayNowListen. We love hearing what y'all have to say. And follow Strong Black Lead on the socials @Strong Black Lead. And follow us too. I'm @SylviaObell.
Scottie: And I'm @ScottieBeam. Unless it's about hot sauce, I'm @nothing.
Sylvia: [laughs] Until next time folks, stay blessed.
[Music Out]